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Wait, do people usually make level ground? No slopes?

level ground slopes mountain ridge gb

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#1 Hoff123

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 05:19 AM

So I posted a map in that "Post your maps" thread and Charizard pointed out that something I had made looked weird. Basically I had made some slopes, like in the official gb games(there are actually quite a lot of them, for example at the beach in LA). But I do agree that it does look kind of weird since there are no shadows or anything that really points out that it's a slope.

 

I'm actually gonna steal(sorry Charizard lol) the image he had made(it's just a little part of my map). You can clearly see what's "wrong".

 

qR1vjpp.png

 

 

But now if I'm not using any slopes at all... This happens(look at the ridge and not the fact that the whole map is empty :))

 

xKxw7T4.png

 

 

So than the question arises... do people usually just keep the ground level(not hills or mountains) the same level? All throughout the whole world map? Or just do like Nintendo actually has done themselves and use weird slopes? :)

 

Maybe I'm really overthinking things here, but I'm curious :).


Edited by Hoff123, 23 March 2014 - 11:51 AM.


#2 Avaro

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 05:40 AM

Yep, I do :). Not sure about others though, as it seems that some people like slopes actually.

#3 Shane

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 05:54 AM

Well, I don't support either of those design choices, personally. The first one confused me until you mentioned it was a slope. Otherwise it kinda looked like a mistake. Mind you, the official Gameboy Zelda had many height errors, it would take me a while to circle everyone of them. Now I'm not saying the beach slopes were errors, because I don't think they were but, I generally think their mountain usage isn't all that great in some areas. This includes the beach for me.

 

I don't support the second one either; it's just a linear mountain. It's got the correct height all the way, but it looks afraid of changing height. I like mountains that connect/disconnect each other to add more variety to the mountain design. Now, I'm not one to approve my own shot, but it's the only shot I could find that truly demonstrates what I mean:

 

mWn1SjY.png

 

But this is all purely opinionated, of course. So you can always keep the mountain the way it was.



#4 Jenny

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 06:00 AM

I never had a problem with it myself, but I know alot of people here do.



#5 Hoff123

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 06:03 AM

I know what you mean. But I kind of mean like it's not a mountain at all, but the actual ground level rises a bit. Not sure how else to explain it... Let's say it's a field, and the southern part of the field is much lower then the north. The ground gradually raises a bit.



#6 Shane

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 06:06 AM

So like a "ramp" in a way?

 

Apologizes for the misunderstanding. I read your last question the wrong way. Either way, I would personally keep mountains the same height until they split apart or join with another mountain. I don't think slopes should affect this.


Edited by Charizard, 23 March 2014 - 06:28 AM.


#7 Hoff123

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 06:45 AM

You probably understand what I mean, but I'm just gonna explain what my problem has been. Bascially I wanted to gradually raise the level of the ground the more north you get. With the ocean and beach being the lowest(and the most south), and mountains being the tallest(and most north). And without slopes, how it looks in the second screen would happen. There would be an annoying straight line across the map lol. And yeah, you could make it more interesting by adding smaller mountains and hills to vary the height transition a little, but there would still be some kind of visible line where the ground rises.



#8 ShadowTiger

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 06:53 AM

Uneven mountains may generally imply uneven ground. I don't think I've ever seen more than a scant handful (if even!) of actual tiles exhibiting some sort of hillside-like terrain with a shadow and everything. It's a rare thing, and the color gradient would be painful to visualize, mostly due to the lack of colors available. I mean why should a hill have more color than the ground surrounding it if the ground on either side probably won't have a color differential?

#9 Timelord

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 09:20 AM

You have to keep in mind, that the perspective is a 3/4 view too, not an overhead view. If you want the hill to look even, you would want to make the edge closer to the screen lower, in the image that you posted. lower the front by one tile, or raise the rest by one tile, and it will look even, when compared to the rest of the surroundings (within reason).

 

Small, but important perspective details, like shadows, usually aren't a priority. The design of these games is iconic, not real-world scale. Is Link as tall as a tree? Why is the door of a house bigger on the inside, not to mention the building itself. It wasn't until the advent of 3-D games, that scale, shadows, and perspective caught the attention of game graphics designers in any major manner, and even then, there are a lot of failed attempts.

 

Draw the landscape in your mind, and then elevate your perspective, so that you are looking at it from aloft, at about a 40-degree angle. It it looks warped, then the perspective is wrong, unless you are aiming for a slant, in which case, adding some extra tiles to use as shadows (FFCs, or layers), would make a world of difference, if this is something that bothers you. If you do, you should decide on the angle of light too, as shadows aren't a constant.

 

I would never complete any portion of any games, if I was that worried about graphical perfection. I try to make fun things to play, not artwork, in a video game. that's why I don't enter the screen of the week contests: it's purely an aesthetic competition, and wastes a lot of time that questmakers could be using to complete something that others would want to play. Even with a team of people, you will have some problems, but for one person, designing a game, you have to make some sacrifices.



#10 Shane

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 09:46 AM

No one said anything about artwork. We're just discussing slopes.


Edited by Charizard, 23 March 2014 - 10:01 AM.


#11 ShadowTiger

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 10:33 AM

The creation of slopes is not necessarily independent of a necessity to create artwork to visually establish the presence of slopes. Without a proper visual component, it would be easier to point out a "simple inconsistency in the height of a mountainside" than generously attribute a lack of height consistency in the same tiles to the presence of a slope somewhere nearby.
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#12 Moosh

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 11:40 AM

if you could have slopes going to the left and right I'd find it more okay. It's a bit strange, but I suppose if you use it sparingly I'm okay with it. Just don't try to explain away tile cutoff by saying, "Ganon messed with time and space and screwed up how Hyrule looks."

Also you used wait as a tag?

#13 Hoff123

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 11:50 AM

Also you used wait as a tag?

 

Eh... yeah...lol

 

EDIT I removed a couple of the tags.


Edited by Hoff123, 23 March 2014 - 12:02 PM.


#14 anikom15

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 01:49 PM

I have slopes in classic.

#15 Timelord

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 03:23 PM



The creation of slopes is not necessarily independent of a necessity to create artwork to visually establish the presence of slopes. Without a proper visual component, it would be easier to point out a "simple inconsistency in the height of a mountainside" than generously attribute a lack of height consistency in the same tiles to the presence of a slope somewhere nearby.

 

That;s also rather my point. Understanding perspetive, or the illusion of perspecive, is art.  Look at this...

 

Ring_of_Saeros_1-1024x640.png

 

Do you notice how the green figure (Saeros) seems to be projecting out, and away from the jewel? That is a perspective trick. In reality, the image is flat, but the way that I positioned the legs, cut off by the bottom of the triangular frame around the jewel, compared to how I positioned his head, arm, and mace, outside that frame, give the illusion that he is rising out of the jewel.

 

Any illusion of perspective is art, even if it is mundane art. Drawing a screen in ZC is also art, and very perspective-dependant. Here is a deletion of examples of both good perspective design, and bad perspective design, from my primary ZC project, The Golden Cenotaph.

 

My apology, for the overload of images, but in my experience, visual cues are the best teaching aids for artistic design.

 

One of my main tricks, is to use tiles with different shading, and patterns, separated by buffer 'walls', and limked with 'stairs' that seem to ascend, or descend, based on shading:

 

zelda067.png  zelda068.png

 

Do you note how the diagonal-brick floor seems lower than the square tile floor? That is a perspective illusion, that I use to make labyrinthine paths in the dungeon. The addition of small ramps adds to the illusion, and makes for a more homogeneous scale. (It also shows that you don't need hyper-modren, LttP, or BS tiles, to make a game look decent, in terms of perspective, shading, and colour; although I dare-say that TGC would benefit from some of those tiles, particularly for some walls, mountains, rivers, and caves. I plan to import (and recolour) them soon.

 

In this next one, you can see how one section appears to be elevated:

 

zelda080.png

 

While, in this one, you can see that the platform with the lever is elevated, but the pool is lowered from the main floor. The lighting (colour choices) used on the 'stairs' helps to add to this illusion:

 

zelda081.png

 

Here, I use layers to give depth perspective to a room. One waterfall is clearly in front of Link, and the other, behind, using identical tiles, with a slight perspective effect to give the room illusion of depth, and the lamp, casting light on the wall behind it, adds to this as well:

 

zelda098.png

 

This one is more complex, with several different areas, some lower, some higher. The main floor raises up, to the tiled floor, and that lowers down, to the spikes; whereas the pool has a dock, which makes it level with he crosshatch flooring.

 

zelda202.png

 

Here, the gate makes a block floor, look like a wall:

 

zelda284.png

 

Here's a side-by-side of bad, and better, perspective.

 

zelda007.png   zelda053.png

 

Bad (Left); Better (Right). The ramp shape, in espcial, helps, but could use a shadow, while the contours on the ship give it better depth and definition. In fact, the entire while mountain plateau, and ship could also use some shadows, and the mountains need slopes to male them look more natural. All of that that would greatly improve the appearance of it being higher than the ground.

 

In this shop, the little purple guy seems to be quite elevated, whereas the shopkeeper is not. The tiles are similar, but the colour choices add to the illusion; however, a different stair type, would make the shopkeep area appear clearly recessed:

 

zelda018.png

 

Shadows on the pond make it look recessed into the ground; adding something under the water also adds depth.

 

 zelda175.png

 

Bad perspective on my part here: What is supposed to be a waterfall, turning into a river, has no break in the flow, to make it look as if it is falling from the cliff, and then changing to a river on the ground. I need to add details to fix it. At present, it looks as if the waterfall is a river, or that the river is a waterfall, despite clearly running under a bridge:

 

zelda147a.png

 

This next river, looks better, but still isn't quite right. I have yet to get round to importing more water, mountain, and other important tiles.

 

zelda050.png

 

While it flows under the bridge, the upper portion still looks raised at a higher elevation, than does the lower part. This is because you (and I) need to skew perspectives like this into trapezoids.

 

Horizontal rivers ans streams work better, but really need shore-banked, irregular edges, and possibly some stones along their inner-path, to keep them from looking so unnatural:

 

These rivers, on the other hand, looks fine. One runds under a bridge, and the other outlets into a reservoir, that looks natural.

 

zelda157.png  zelda069.png

 

The reservoir in turn, looks good, because the water clearly flows under overhangs, that have good shadows, but the rivers could still use banks to give them depth; and the water should be less turbulent.

 

I dropped the ball here. Most of this screen is fine, but the block walls look like floors, and need a perspective adjustment:

zelda128.png  zelda130.png

Intended as a Retaining Wall (left) vs. A Sideview Wall (right; from LSIC by Alucard)

 

A final example of perspective-based raised and lowered platforms, that look decent:

zelda086.png  zelda086.png

 

Good use of colour is very important. Compare these to the older screens, and you will see...

 

Here, I have trees overshadowing a road. Can you spot the flaw?

zelda022.png

 

 

This is one of those circumstances, where adding the missing detail would be a gigantic, game-wide pain, but would also look brilliant.

 

Don't forget your subscreen(!). :)

 

zelda296.png

 

Subsreens make your game unique, and add flavour to your quest. They are very easy to design, one you learn the basics.


Edited by ZoriaRPG, 23 March 2014 - 03:42 PM.

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