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#16 Jamian

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 11:17 AM

I have to ask, what's the point of having ammo at all?

 

It makes you conscious about not wasting bombs, arrows, etc. too easily. Though there's a line between:

- Making the player ammo-conscious, encouraging him to not waste his ammo when it's not needed, yet allowing him to get refills reasonably easily.

- Pulling jank such as having a bombable wall in the middle of a dungeon, with no bomb drops inside, no shops selling bombs nearby, etc. That's just frustrating and doesn't add anything to the quest apart from said frustration.



#17 KingPridenia

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 12:37 PM

Hmm Jamian, question about point 2. What if he had a shop within the dungeon that would sell the bombs/arrows in case a player used one too many, but at an inflated price? For instance, the inconvenient out of the way ammo shop may sell 4 Bombs for 20 Rupees and 10 Arrows for 25 Rupees. However, in the dungeon, you have the same shop, only have the 4 pack of Bombs cost 40 Rupees and the bundle of 10 Arrows 50 Rupees, or something similar? In other words, you don't go through half the dungeon only to find out you NEED bombs and have to run 15 minutes out of your way to buy some. But at the same time, it punishes you for being wasteful, making you have to pay more for the convenience factor. It's something I've dabbled with in my own project. You could get bombs/arrows cheaper if you don't mind a 5 minute detour, or you could buy them right in the dungeon and pay a convenience fee.



#18 Jamian

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 12:58 PM

That would be fine by me.



#19 anikom15

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 03:02 PM

Nothing wrong with your list in my opinion. You can even make Link die on a single hit for the entire quest without having cheap difficulty. It all depends on the quest. Kind of pointless, this topic. Though, make sure that stuff in shops is not expensive to an extend, that boring grinding is reqjired.

 

That's kind of a cheap answer. Surely you must have some kind of opinion on my pointless topic, else I figure I might as well not care what anyone thinks and if they don't like my quest THEYCANSUCKIT.

 

It makes you conscious about not wasting bombs, arrows, etc. too easily. Though there's a line between:

- Making the player ammo-conscious, encouraging him to not waste his ammo when it's not needed, yet allowing him to get refills reasonably easily.

- Pulling jank such as having a bombable wall in the middle of a dungeon, with no bomb drops inside, no shops selling bombs nearby, etc. That's just frustrating and doesn't add anything to the quest apart from said frustration.

 

I think you're making assumptions about my quest that are skewing your perspective. In my quest, you can hold up to 50 bombs, and there are a lot less bombable walls than in Z1 (in fact, only 5 are required up to level 3, 4 of which are in the level you get bombs), and you can do sword tapping. Bombs are fairly easy to come by. They are still dropped by enemies, though you get only one, and there are quite a lot of shops to get them at. I think I can design the game in such a way where it's like 'C'mon dude you had 30 bombs and you didn't think of saving just one for a wall? Go back and buy some more!'

 

Now what about life? That's more important to discuss, because it is a lot more scarce without any drops. There is usually a place near the dungeon entrances where you can buy life items. I think expecting the player to get through the entire dungeon without dying is reasonable, but it depends. If the quest was as hard as yours, I definitely think having no life refills would be frustrating.

 

I will be bumping the starting life to 85% because it has the same effects as 3/4 but gives your heart containers more bang for their buck.

 

Hmm Jamian, question about point 2. What if he had a shop within the dungeon that would sell the bombs/arrows in case a player used one too many, but at an inflated price? For instance, the inconvenient out of the way ammo shop may sell 4 Bombs for 20 Rupees and 10 Arrows for 25 Rupees. However, in the dungeon, you have the same shop, only have the 4 pack of Bombs cost 40 Rupees and the bundle of 10 Arrows 50 Rupees, or something similar? In other words, you don't go through half the dungeon only to find out you NEED bombs and have to run 15 minutes out of your way to buy some. But at the same time, it punishes you for being wasteful, making you have to pay more for the convenience factor. It's something I've dabbled with in my own project. You could get bombs/arrows cheaper if you don't mind a 5 minute detour, or you could buy them right in the dungeon and pay a convenience fee.

 

This is something I will be doing for a few dungeons.



#20 Jamian

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 03:16 PM

I think you're making assumptions about my quest that are skewing your perspective.

 

I wasn't talking about your quest specifically, I was talking in general.



#21 Avaro

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 04:10 PM

Well, okay. :) Here's my opinion on each of your points:
 

No fairy fountains

Sounds good and it seems like it would fit your quest. (based on your other points)
 

Enemies don't drop life (or magic?)

Well, ok. Enemies not dropping anything probably takes away the satisfaction of killing them, but that's not for sure. If all they drop is rupees, then you have to reconsider this. I think you should make them drop a variety of random items, to keep things interesting. Making enemies give you experience points to Level up is also a good way to go.
 

Enemies drop less rupees

As I said, make sure that you don't make grinding required. If you say you have secrets and hidden rupees scattered around the quest, then that's good.
 

No clocks

Good. I hate clocks.
 

Link only starts with 3/4 of his life, except at the beginning. Heart containers and pieces refill life.

Not sure. Sounds like you make the player have to use a potion to get back to 100% health everytime he dies, as there are no life drops.
 

No F6

These tiny 4 letters make such a huge difference to the game. Consider this carefully. Place save points throughout the quest, perhaps even in dungeons or caves. Or better yet, allow saving anywhere, by scripting a save button or a save item (you could even make the save item use magic if you like). Also, this is important: Make sure your quest works in the latest build (2.50.1 RC2 and up!). These builds prevent quitting the game with F6 if you enabled the rule that disables F6. If we had to play the quest in a lower build, expect raging xD
 

Do you think this will make things hard enough, generally speaking?

Sounds like it. :)

Edited by Avataro, 17 February 2014 - 04:43 PM.


#22 Shane

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 04:40 PM

No fairy fountains

Most quests never really gave these out anyway.

 

Enemies don't drop life (or magic?)

How about rare spawns? That way it encourages you a little more to tackle enemies possibly increasing dat death count.

 

Enemies drop less rupees

No. Don't do that. That's tedious, not difficult.

 

No clocks

Yes. That is all I have to say. I swear this item is for lightweight people who can't fight moving gels.

 

Link only starts with 3/4 of his life, except at the beginning. Heart containers and pieces refill life.

No. You're making it difficult to get hearts so let me start at max HP please.

 

No F6

Thank you. I'm a patient player and can backtrack. I punished F6ers in swag.qst, it was hilarious.

Do you think this will make things hard enough, generally speaking?

Some can provide a good difficult quest if executed right.


Edited by Charizard, 17 February 2014 - 04:40 PM.


#23 Yloh

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 06:48 PM

I will give you my two cents on your ideas anikom15. This is coming from a person who actually enjoyed Liberation of Hyrule and Armageddon Quest. I mean, I made a playthrough for each game on youtube. 

 

No Fairy Fountains

 

This doesn't bother me one bit. I'm neutral when it comes to fairy fountains. 

 

Enemies don't drop life (or magic?)

 

For me, this actually doesn't both me much as well. When enemies don't drop life, the player is forced to be more careful when fighting enemies in a dungeon. I may be in the minority on this one, but I actually like the system of having to buy your hearts in Liberation of Hyrule. Again, it forces the player to fight more carefully. I can see why this idea may be unpopular and having life refills does encourage people to actually battle the enemies. If they don't drop any life, and the player is almost dead, they will either: give up and die, F6, run away from fights, and/or rage quit.

 

With magic, I actually have mixed feelings about a magic bar. I find it annoying when my magic bar runs out and I have to try to refill my magic in order to complete a dungeon. This is especially true for the lens of truth. Personally, I will reset the game if I run out of magic in a lens of truth dungeon. I just memorize where to go without the lens and use it again in later parts. I can see if you need to use magic to battle opponents and need to conserve your magic meter; that I like. I just don't like running out of magic and need it to solve a puzzle. Crap, I need more magic in order to use my candle. One solution to this is to provide some magic, for free, in a room near a puzzle requiring magic. 

No clocks

 

No problem here. I make fun of the clock in my Armageddon Quest playthrough and abuse the living daylight out of it. Limiting the time is also fine with me.

Link only starts with 3/4 of his life, except at the beginning. Heart containers and pieces refill life.

 

Personally I don't like this rule because I want to get going after loading my file, however, after reading some people's feelings on this rule, I can see why this rule can actually be a good thing. 

 

No F6

 

Down with F6. I try not to use F6 myself, but I don't really care if other people use it. I don't plan on disabling F6 in my quest, but I might try and find a clever way to punish a player who uses F6.

 

I really quests that actually make you utilize every tool Link has in order to survive. A lot of quests allow the player to just use the boomerang and sword to get by. Being forced to use bombs, arrows, hammer, wand, candle, bait, etc to survive is hard to do, but awesome when done right. I absolute love using the bait for battle purposes. Personally, I think the boomerang is overpowered. When you get into items like the hookshot and fire boomerang, the game just becomes too easy. Sure you can use red bubbles to disable your B items, but that will not be popular. You can also use the enemy and item editor to disable the stun affect on those items. You can also remove the boomerang all together, but I don't think that will be very popular. My main point is try to make situations where Link can't just use his trusty boomerang to survive. 

 

Another thing, in my opinion, the red and gold rings are too powerful. Sure, you can make it so end game enemies do way more damage and/or over crowd a room with crackorocks, but, most of the time, I can still sleep through those enemies as they give me the same amount of life as I loose when battling them. It moves into the territory of false difficulty. Also, I don't want to see a splitting darknut and say, "Yes, more life" I want to see a splitting darknut and say, "Oh boy, I need to be careful". I feel fine with the blue ring as a decent amount of enemies can still harm Link with the blue ring. If you want to use end game enemies like death knights, I feel Liberation of Hyrule and Armageddon quest did that enemy right.

 

You could also limit the amount of hearts a player receives all together. I feel most quests, and games, are way harder at the beginning than at the end because you can't take a beating. Most games I can sleep though at the end because I can take a ton of hits from the strongest enemies. Making the enemies a threat through out the whole game can be very difficult to do. I may not be the best person to come to when it comes to advise on this subject. Personally, I feel the player should be allowed to make more mistakes (getting hit) at the beginning of the game and not be allowed to make as many mistakes (getting hit) at the end of the game. I also feel enemies at the end of the game should be harder to avoid, but, with skill, should still be avoidable. 

 

I would love to hear what you and other people have to say about my thoughts.


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#24 anikom15

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 07:23 PM

Okay so it seems that No Fairy Fountains is definitely good. Enemies don't drop life seems to be fairly accepted, but unliked. Enemies don't drop magic on the other hand seems almost universally popular, so I think I'll have some enemies drop magic once in a while. Enemies drop less rupees isn't liked very much, so I'll try to balance the drops so that you're getting a good cash flow without needing to grind and without being overly rich. No clocks is definite. Starting with less life is generally unpopular, but I'm still wrestling with it. I think 85% might be a good compromise. No F6 seems like it's for sure.

 

Yloh. I agree that the Gold Ring is too powerful. I think the Red Ring is, too, but it's okay to have because you get it so late. It's like a 'You've gotten this far, you deserve to be able to just kill everything' type item. I want to ask what your thoughts on L3+ enemies are. I'm planning on not using them, or just using them for maybe a few rooms in like the last dungeon or as mini-bosses or something. What do you think?

 

I definitely want to make a quest where you utilize all your items to survive. It's not easy, but all you really need to do is think about the room layout. You can use blocks that block the boomerang, arrows, and what not. You can also use different combinations of enemies. Like Likes and Wizzrobes are one example. Wizzrobes keep you on the move, but Like Likes make you think twice about moving!

 

As far as difficulty goes, it's very easy to make the beginning too hard due to only having a few hearts. I made the first dungeon very light on enemies, made lots of heart pieces available from the beginning, and made Din's Fire obtainable fairly early (but it becomes less useful as many enemies have immunity to it). I also want the difficulty to fluctuate a bit. My theory is that the beginning should be easy to get the player involved and used to the game, then a little bit tough in the sense that Kankei is weak and is just trying to survive, then he gets stronger and things seem to ease out, and then finally things get really hard, really fast. This process happens near the beginning of the game, so about half or so of the game is steady and difficult.


Edited by anikom15, 17 February 2014 - 07:34 PM.


#25 strike

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 08:11 PM

I agree with you Yloh on a lot of stuff. Rings being overpowered, boomerang OP, Hookshot OP, splitting Darknuts Basically being health refill rooms... If we are now talking about """"challenge quests"""" (notice the excessive quotation marks), I've been making one for a while now and have been wondering some things:

1) Difficulty curve. How do you make sure the difficulty curve actually works and you don't run out of ideas toward the end?

2) How do people feel about not having a sword till the second dungeon?

3) How do people feel about challenging puzzles involving codes and things of that sort?

4) How do you test the difficulty of a challenge quest to make sure difficulty stays consistent?

-Strike

Edited by strike, 17 February 2014 - 08:11 PM.


#26 MoscowModder

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 08:17 PM

One thing you can do for a more balanced difficulty curve is adjust the power of swords and tunics. Instead of 1, 2, 4, 8 power each, set them to 1, 2, 3, 4 each (if you use all 4). That way, when the player upgrades his gear, he isn't suddenly able to withstand twice as much damage and kill enemies twice as fast as before.

 

Depending on how evil you are, you can adjust enemy power the same way (even adding a couple more in-between tiers of common enemies) or leave them as they are, doubling in stats each tier.

 

For a really fun challenge, you can make enemies that look familiar (or not) but behave in unexpected ways. 4-shot Octorocks? Check! Charging Darknuts? Check! Exploding Gels? Czech Check!


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#27 Jamian

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 09:18 PM

I agree with you Yloh on a lot of stuff. Rings being overpowered, boomerang OP, Hookshot OP, splitting Darknuts Basically being health refill rooms... If we are now talking about """"challenge quests"""" (notice the excessive quotation marks), I've been making one for a while now and have been wondering some things:

1) Difficulty curve. How do you make sure the difficulty curve actually works and you don't run out of ideas toward the end?

2) How do people feel about not having a sword till the second dungeon?

3) How do people feel about challenging puzzles involving codes and things of that sort?

4) How do you test the difficulty of a challenge quest to make sure difficulty stays consistent?

-Strike

 

1/4: I'd say this is where beta testing is important.

3: Not sure what you mean?

2: "ToTheTop", despite being old, is imo an absolutely amazing quest, yet you don't get the sword until level 6 or so. Not giving the player a sword makes things harder to manage, but it's possible to pull off.



#28 Nathaniel

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 10:16 PM

There are clever ways to make a quest hard.  The way you design a screen can contribute to it by having some narrow passages and non-enemy hazards to have to get through, even if you use enemies that are generally considered easy in most situations.  Even keese are a major problem if you have pits or traps to avoid, for example.  Also, having several enemy types together in one screen is often harder because the player has to focus on different enemy patterns at once, which can disorient the player.  8 blue wizzrobes is difficult, but predictable after a while.  Make a screen with 2 blue wizzrobes, 2 blue darknuts, 2 like likes, and 2 bubbles, and you got something going there.


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#29 Yloh

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:48 AM

anikom15

 

I think level 3 enemies are great, but only used sparingly. Having a room full of stalfos 3 will cause the game to rely on some luck to have you be successful. Instead of having just stalfos 3, maybe only having one or two of them mixed with some like likes, stalfos 2, and some obstacles. You can even make some level 3 enemies even more difficult by adding some level 2 enemies to help them out. For example, make a room with only one crackorock and some darknut 2s. The darknut 2s will be immune to any arrows or boomerangs that will try and stop the crackorock. All at the same time, when you stun the crackorock with your boomerang, you need to worry about the darknut 2s. Goriya 3s are just plain annoying, but can be useful sparingly. Having a room full of shooting enemies (and I mean high level shooting enemies) with some goriya 3s is just plain unfair. Instead, put a goriya 3 with some lower level shooting enemies and/or non-shooting enemies.

 

Overall, I do enjoy the really high level enemies Zelda Classic has to offer, but they can also be abused and turn the game into fake difficulty as well. They are a power that must be dealt with great responsibility. Of course, with the right gear, you can throw a little more of them at the end game or optional dungeon. I agree that a level 3 ring is nice to have at the end game. It really makes the player feel triumphant over everything that person had to fight through. It is nice to be able to just mindlessly explore any previous part of the game looking for secrets with out worrying about dying. At the end of the game, that is the perfect time to fill up rooms with a little more level three enemies. Instead of one or two level three enemies, use four to six level three enemies. Maybe even 8 to 10 if there is a lot of space to fight in. The difficulty of these enemies also depends on your equipment. Level 3 arrows are simply too powerful; mirror shield is overpowered as well. Your equipment can make level 3 enemies quite feeble under the might of a skilled player, heck, even a decent player can make these enemies crawl. I even think some equipment is more powerful than a level 3 ring. Sometimes a good offence is the better defense. I feel every default enemy in Zelda Classic has its place in any quest, but to use them wisely is where the true difficulty comes along.   

 

On the same note, simply putting traps, spikes, and shooting statues in a room can make level 1 enemies quite dangerous. Room set up really plays a big role in difficulty.

 

Speaking of enemies, one of the best features in zquest 2.5 is the enemy editor. I am going crazy with this editor for my quest. I'll go ahead and spoil one thing. Darknuts, in my quest, will be immune to the wooden sword. While the enemy editor may have it limits, it really allows a wide variety of newer enemies to bring to the table. You can even modify some level 3 enemies to be less dangerous and use them earlier in a quest, and/or make some level 1 and/or 2 enemies more dangerous. You can make new enemies all together. I love it when quests add strengths and weaknesses to enemies. You don't have to have an enemy weakness one shot them. You can have enemies take half damage and/or quarter damage with every other weapon except for one. This is one way how you can make Link utilize his equipment to the max. Some people don't want to use the enemy editor and that is fine.

 

Speaking of editing, I like MoscowModder's suggestion to weapon upgrades. Instead of going for the 1,2,4,8 damage upgrade, you can go 1,2,3,4 or what ever you feel like. Same thing for armor. Instead of Link taking .5, .25, .125 damage, you can have Link take .75, .5, .25 damage or what ever you feel like. This will not only allow players feel more powerful, but it also won't allow lower enemies to become obsolete as quickly.

 

I agree with you anikom15 with how you need to design your room layout with care in order to utilize Link's tools to the max. I believe some quests do a very good job with this. Evan20000's quest "Isle of Rebirth" does a great job with that. For example, spoiler alert for the rest of this paragraph, in the second major dungeon, there are many ropes. Those ropes are put in rooms without much room to maneuver. They also have fire balls shooting at you in some rooms and other aggressive enemies that are immune to the boomerang as well. You can't just have Link stun all the ropes because he will become overwhelmed quickly. Instead, I had to use my bow and arrows to defeat some ropes quickly, and use my boomerang at the end to conserve ammo. In the fourth major dungeon, there are mummies that are immune the the boomerang. You must use the bait to get them out of your way, kill the other enemies with the standard sword and boomerang, and you can finish the mummies off in one shot with the candle. In the fifth major dungeon, the darknuts charge at you while you are on ice. You must use your hammer to defend yourself while using your candle to defeat some, I don't know what they are, snow like enemies. In the seventh major dungeon, you must use your bombs and upgraded candle to clear out a room of bats to get to the bat wizzrobes. I feel that James24's quest "The Liberation of Hyrule" also did a great job at forcing Link to utilize everything in your inventory, but for very different reasons. In fortress 2, you must use your bait in a room full of ice and higher level enemies. They are impossible to defeat with your puny equipment, but the bait will lure every enemy into a corner allowing for easy targets that are not interested in you. In fortress 3, I needed to use my arrows to lower the number of enemies while using my boomerang to finish off the last of the enemies in order to conserve my rupees. In fortress 7, you must use the red candle to avoid getting touched by the red bubbles in order to reach the fire boomerang. From there you must use a combination of bombs, silver arrows, fire boomerang, and hammer just to survive that dungeon. I even used the step ladder to help me battle there.    

 

To be honest, I'm just throwing out ideas from the top of my head. I still have a lot to learn about making a game balance well. I agree with Jamian with beta testing. Having other people try out your quest can really help you see things that you may miss. Of course, know that you can't please everybody. I hope you make a quest that you are happy with.


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#30 KingPridenia

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 11:05 AM

To be honest, I thought James24 was pretty unique having a shop that sold the same item 3 times, only you had to buy the most expensive one if you lacked the Power Bracelet. Like:

 

No Bracelet? 1 heart = 20 Rupees

L1 Bracelet? 1 heart = 10 Rupees (blocked by light Push Heavy blocks)

L2 Bracelet? 1 heart = 5 Rupees (blocked off by dark Push Heavy2 blocks)

 

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't LoH open-ended where you can try any dungeon whenever you want? Some of the boss fights in that game are insane. Like in one, you have to candle damage boost yourself into spikes, quickly shoot an arrow to kill a Gohma, then get off before you stop blinking. I also believe that in both Armageddon Quest and Liberation of Hyrule, sometimes you have to return to other dungeons. LoH makes military boot camp look like a joke, especially in the final dungeon. It's a sadistic marathon of enemies where one mistake results in either your death or taking a lot of extra damage you can't afford. Every single room can easily kill you. Made worse is that you pretty much HAVE TO have your skills at their absolute limits to see it to the end. While I expected worse seeing Y1oh's run of it, it was still insane.

 

And I think it's obvious, but neither to my knowledge have ANY defense upgrades, save for the cheat items in LoH. Also I almost want to say that until the end of LoH, you NEVER get potions. You're literally required to make it on whatever your maximum health is. Oh, and every death, you only have 1 heart to continue with. Thankfully, most dungeons have a heart refill station near them.

 

I don't know if this was mentioned or not, but what about having to know the ins and outs of one type of enemy's AI? For instance, you're in a narrow hallway where you're prevented from using the half tile trick to avoid Wallmasters from coming out to grab you. To successfully escape the room, you have to know to look the opposite way you're going until both of them appear, get some progress, rinse and repeat until you're at the door. You have to do this while both sword and item jinxed. Here's a screenshot of a room sample:

 

3sa0poqn2yq68bsfg.jpg

 

There is just enough room for the room to be fully walkable yet prevent you from hugging the northern wall to prevent Wallmasters from spawning. Ditto for the southern entrance. Slip up with the pair of Wallmasters and how they spawn and you'll be given a hand back to the start.


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