74 replies to this topic

[SpacemanDan]

Before, I liked the idea of HCPs, but these days I completely agree with Radien here. When it comes to designing a quest, I find scattering them around very messy and difficult to keep track of. There are a lot of things to consider when giving them out, and when making future areas, it leaves me thinking 'is the player going to go out and find all the HCPs they can at this point or only a few?' Sure, there's a chance of them not looking at all, but if they do, how much will they do before getting tired and move on the next area. I could eliminate a lot of this with putting HCs instead. Now I only have to account for one or two areas where I placed an HC and I can design more safely around ideas of whether or not the player will bother or not as opposed to 4 or 8 locations.

It's also a more immediate reward, as opposed to forcing the player to search out more to get something I could have given them the all first time around for their troubles. Things that benefit you now I find are much better rewards since they give the player a reason to go look around more for other things as opposed to finding that last HCP. It may make them more likely to go seek out more stuff since they know it's an immediate benefit as opposed to more tedious searching to actually get a benefit of some sort. (Let's face it, some of those damn things can be very well hidden and can be discouraging to seek out)

Of course, there's no way for certain to know what a player will do, but when designing, it's key to think of what they player may or may not do.

My 2 cents.

[Mitchfork]

I really disagree with Radien. While HCPs may be measley in his opnion, but I like the idea of scattering lots of HCPs all over the overworld; gives the player more incentive to explore very nook and cranny. Diamond Quest will have many HCPs on the overworld and there are two in each dungeon and tomb. Combine this with the fact that five are needed to get a new HCP, I have a character who will sell Link HCPs among other rare items (mind you, you can't buy them twice at a single location), an overworld consisting of 5 BS overworlds and you can have 36 total with enemies that can cause 16+ hearts damage with only green tunic; HCPs in best way I feel like putting them.

But if they're a measly reward, doesn't that give me less reason to explore every nook and cranny...? And because you mentioned it, let's examine the science of video game damage/hit points:

The more damage your enemies do, the less important one heart container becomes. Lets say you have an enemy that cuts off 16 hearts per hit, and I just happen to have 16 hearts total. In this case, an extra heart container is very useful. Before, I couldn't take a single hit; now I can at least survive. However, if I have 17 hearts, an extra heart container does nothing for me. In fact, if I have anywhere between 17 and 32 hearts, I'll die in the exact same number of hits: 2. If you're loading 5 HCP's into a single heart, that means that there are 80 pieces of heart which do nothing to make this fight easier. Even if I were to have the Blue Ring, this number only drops to 40. Can you really say that it's worth it for the player to find those HCP's in this situation?

On the other hand, the Blue Ring itself is very useful. If I have 16 hearts, getting the Blue Ring is like finding 80 HCP's (in your quest, anyway). Finding the Red Ring is like finding a whopping 160 extra pieces of heart. Can you really say that finding the Red Ring is almost twice as hard as finding every single piece of heart? The usefulness of the item has to be reflected in the difficulty it takes to acquire.

That's the real problem with pieces of heart. You can err on either side; either the game is too easy, and they're not necessary, or the game is designed with so much damage that they don't help that much anyway. It's hard to strike that balance, and Rings/Tunics are much better as both rewards and difficulty adjusters.

I plan to put a grand total of 90 HCPs, which would amount to just 18 full HCs w/o the 90 HCPs. Since Diamond Quest is a quest where you will be scathing for every upgrade around, espically extra HCs, I felt it was nessacary. After all; the final boss will show no mercy if you never bothered to collect the HCPs, as he will have several attacks that OHKO you if you didn't explored enough to find at LEAST five HCPs to increase your HC count or find the final tunic.

Doesn't sound like my kind of quest, haha.

To get back on topic; I'm saying that HCPs done like what I plan in Diamond Quest can be felt as nessacary upgrades and make the player REALLY explore, allowing them to run into other goodies, say the Whismiscal Ring, while collecting the HCPs they need to stand up to tough foes like the Whispies. I can see Radien's point here; a small quest doesn't need them much, but large or difficult quests (Hero of Dreams, NTAEL, Ballad of a Bloodline, etc...) may need them.

While you may have a point, the source of a quest's difficulty has to be taken into account as well. No matter how much health the player has, the enemy composition can be altered to accommodate it.

[Radien]

I think Ebola thoroughly explored most of the points I might have made, so I'm simply going to say I agree with his last post. But hey, let's look at it from a different angle:

Often in games, what we call "difficulty" ends up being "time spent." After all, if a boss is really hard, you can keep loading at the last check point and attempting to defeat it until you either get lucky or finally become skilled enough to win. Sure, difficulty is behind it, but the price paid is time spent.

So let's see... say you have 8 hearts and this boss is just a little tough. You now have a choice: how do you invest your time? Do you keep attempting to defeat it with a low number of hearts, or do you spend time searching for life upgrades on the overworld? Your decision may have a lot to do with how well and how QUICKLY the questmaker rewards exploration. If the questmaker requires 5 HCPs per heart, and scatters the next 5 HCPs on the furthest corners of the map, it may take the player 1, 2, or even 3 hours to earn another heart. And if the player doesn't find all 5 of the pieces needed for the next heart, s/he gets NO REWARD.

Now, compare it with the other option:

Reload from the beginning of the labyrinth and try again. If you get lucky and win the boss fight, you just saved yourself several hours of wandering semi-aimlessly.

Since really, at best, life upgrades do nothing more than reduce the difficulty a little bit, and allow you to make a few more mistakes... is it really worthwhile to travel the length of the in-game globe just to get a few freebie life points in a boss fight?... After all, once you learn HOW to avoid the boss, whether or not you will get damaged at all becomes easier and easier to control. Also, time spent searching for life upgrades is time NOT spent practicing the boss fight. Since you'll probably have to "figure out" the boss fight sooner or later, searching for upgrades is only delaying that fact. That's why it doesn't necessarily feel more satisfying from a strategy point of view.



And that leads us to my argument which targets all the recent official Zelda games, too (OoT, WW, TP):

If you wait until the end of the game to find most of the HCPs, by then, you won't even care about the reward at ALL. You'll have a big enough life meter to complete the game, and a measly 1/4th heart just won't be enough to make a difference. The longer you wait, the less significant they will be. Sure, you can find them all and say "I found all the hearts," but wouldn't you rather get something USEFUL and FUN for your troubles, in addition to bragging rights?...

For instance, how about a weapon that will kick Ganon's butt from here to Jupiter?...



Oh, also, an addendum reply:

I can see Radien's point here; a small quest doesn't need them much, but large or difficult quests (Hero of Dreams, NTAEL, Ballad of a Bloodline, etc...) may need them.

I never really said that in those exact words...

As for extremely difficult quests, I think Ebola already explained why having dozens of little HCPs everywhere isn't a very appealing way to reward the player. As for really long quests, though: I could easily make the argument that no quest NEEDS to be that long.

Why? Because your definition of a "short" quest puts Zelda 1st Quest in the "short" category. Heck, 2nd Quest might also be called "short" by your definition. Given that ZC uses the same base engine as the original LoZ, it seems very strange to categorize both of them as "short" games.

Of course, extended game length alone is not necessarily a bad thing in a game. The problem is that what the designer does to MAKE it longer MAY end up making it not-so-fun. For instance, requiring the player to save up hundreds of rupees to buy a plot item... yeah, after awhile that gets really boring. It isn't really fair for me to make any across-the-board statements, but I do think that most extremely long quests start to get boring after awhile. ZC may have a ton of different items to give, but there IS a limit to its potential scope... and adding more maps can only do so much.

And anyway, if you DO have a really long quest, by using HCPs, you are literally doing nothing but stretching out the same rewards -- handing them out at a slower rate. Do you consider that more fun? Because I certainly don't. I'd rather have a much wider variety of tools, even at the cost of a smaller life bar (though it doesn't necessarily have to be one or the other). If the game isn't more fun, I don't care whether it's easier! And having more tools to work with generally makes the game more interesting, and more fun.

[Avaro]

Thanks for bringing me back to reason, Radien! I agree with you

[Radien]

Thanks for bringing me back to reason, Radien! I agree with you

Well now, that's encouraging to hear. Thank you for hearing me out!

Have you decided to use Heart Containers instead of HCPs? And if so, are you going to add in any new items to give as rewards, instead of the HCPs you removed?

[ShadowTiger]

I actually agree with a lot of people here, though it's not really about agreeing in the end. It's about how you want your particular quest to flow and feel like.

First, I should open by saying that I don't really like Rupee drops as treasure in chests or rewards for finding things. They feel like a cop-out, because they're so temporary, and you can get Rupees from grinding (Which people hate, I know...) but worse, if you're already maxed out on rupees, and you find a rupee reward, you're basically given a pointless reward. I hate that feeling so much.

I'd rather find a HCP that I might eventually use, than rupees I'll have immediately wasted, or will never need at having bought (Or found. O.o) everything already. I.e. When confronted with a Heart Container or Medicine Room, you should always, without exception, take the Heart Container. Rupees are dropped by enemies, to purchase red medicine with. Nothing at all ever drops a Heart Container.

I do agree that side quests ought to drop permanent items of worth and practical use, and I'm not sure that even a full Heart Container is really worth a full side quest. I think Health is a measure of progress in a game and leveling up, rather than going out to do side quests. If a game has enough Side Quests that their gimmick bonus unnecessary-but-useful items spill over into HCP land, that's fine. But we don't have enough time or resources to make a side quest for everything.

[Avaro]

I'll make my quest like in PH and ST. You'll only get Heart Containers and real rewards. And I'll hide simple ammo upgrades instead of HCP's.

I also don't like HCP's, personally. In TP I never tried to get them. It's a waste of time, and I didn't need them. Ammo upgrades are more useful. And big sidequests will have Scrolls, Peril Rings, etc.

[Radien]

First, I should open by saying that I don't really like Rupee drops as treasure in chests or rewards for finding things. They feel like a cop-out, because they're so temporary, and you can get Rupees from grinding (Which people hate, I know...) but worse, if you're already maxed out on rupees, and you find a rupee reward, you're basically given a pointless reward. I hate that feeling so much.

Well yes, that's totally true. And it's something that's REALLY a problem in Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess (even though in TP, they allow you to put money back if your wallet is full).

But really, that's starting to get into the subject of "balancing a Rupee economy," and we could create a whole new thread for that.

I'd rather find a HCP that I might eventually use, than rupees I'll have immediately wasted, or will never need at having bought (Or found. O.o) everything already. I.e. When confronted with a Heart Container or Medicine Room, you should always, without exception, take the Heart Container. Rupees are dropped by enemies, to purchase red medicine with. Nothing at all ever drops a Heart Container.

True true true. And there are even more reasons to take the Heart Container: namely, the HC will give you a permanent reward... but when you drink up all of the potion, it's gone. Even as a little kid I understood that difference before figuring out the money side of it.

I do agree that side quests ought to drop permanent items of worth and practical use, and I'm not sure that even a full Heart Container is really worth a full side quest. I think Health is a measure of progress in a game and leveling up, rather than going out to do side quests. If a game has enough Side Quests that their gimmick bonus unnecessary-but-useful items spill over into HCP land, that's fine. But we don't have enough time or resources to make a side quest for everything.

If a quest isn't hard enough (the battle part, anyway), a Heart Container won't be as useful of a reward.

However, rather than thinking of life as the only measure of difficulty, what if we think of life as ammo? For instance, "How many arrows do I need to win this fight?" Change that sentence, and you get "How many hearts do I need to win this fight?"

Once you have enough hearts, getting more might help, but it might not. You might finish the battle with six hearts left, and realize you could have easily gotten away with one less Heart Container, if push came to shove. True, running out of ammo won't necessarily kill you in a boss fight... but it might force you to retreat and refill, which also takes time, right?...

I'll make my quest like in PH and ST. You'll only get Heart Containers and real rewards. And I'll hide simple ammo upgrades instead of HCP's.

I also don't like HCP's, personally. In TP I never tried to get them. It's a waste of time, and I didn't need them. Ammo upgrades are more useful. And big sidequests will have Scrolls, Peril Rings, etc.

I like this idea. And comparing it to the DS Zelda games is a great comparison. Though I haven't played ST, I can say that I really liked that about PH: the rewards were always worth something.

OoT and TP may have their strong points, but the cartoony Zelda games have always had great Rupee economies, and generally worthwhile rewards. I guess that's just how they turned out.

[Sheik]

Radien, I'm with you.
While I do enjoy hunting HCPs, I actually remember hundrets of occosians where I though "What, this side quest only got me a lousy HCP? How disappointing." In fact, after a few of the sidequests in MM, which all rewarded me with HPCs I was so annoyed that I decided to simply skip all the sidequests besides the one for the Gilded Sword and play thorugh the plot and defeat MM.
What I could imagine is some system where you don't get HCPs for side quests (but rather "real" rewards) and HCPs can only (!) be found in underground cave systems or other "hidden" places in the overworld. That way you'd still have the joy of HCP-hunting but you don't get disappointed by your side quest rewards.
But really, full HCs do the job just as well if not better. EDIT: Or poe souls, golden bugs or skultulla tokens.

EDIT2: On the issue of ammu and ammu-upgrades: I really liked how LoZ only allowed you to carry 8 bombs at a time. Finding a bomb was like finding something good, precious. That actually made you reconsider using your bombs, in other titles of the series where you could carry up to 100bombs (or something) you just never had to worry about running out of ammu. Bombs where worlds greater in LoZ (more useful, powerful against almost any enemey) than in the later titles anyways, but that's another topic.

Edited by Sheik91, 20 March 2011 - 07:52 AM.

[Twilight Knight]

Well it really just depends to me. If I have to do a series of hard things, I really expect a magic or heart container, but when it's a simple secret on a screen, a hearth container piece is very generous.

[Adem]

I understand your POV and I agree with you on many aspects, but, in the long run, I enjoy HCPs. In Ocarina of Time, I remember I spent a lot of time searching for all of the HCPs, and when I found them, I felt pretty triumphant. It was like a little reward for going out of you way to explore a bit, rather than just breezing through the game. As far as rewards for sidequests go, though, I don't think they're a good idea, unless it's something as simple as delivering a lost puppy in Hyrule Market. However, I enjoy finding them scattered across maps and what not.

[NoeL]

I'm surprised no one has brought up the "hearts as exp." system from LoZ and MM - you know, where you needed a certain amount of hearts to wield a better sword, or progress through that maze behind the waterfall (I can't remember what was at the end of that though. Probably some kind of mask). This gives the player added incentive to track down the HC(P)s beyond just their life benefits.

EDIT: TP had a similar thing with that arena dungeon thing in Gerudo Valley. You didn't need the hearts, but it was damn tough to get through without them.

Edited by NoeL, 20 March 2011 - 11:46 AM.

[Radien]

Radien, I'm with you.
While I do enjoy hunting HCPs, I actually remember hundrets of occosians where I though "What, this side quest only got me a lousy HCP? How disappointing." In fact, after a few of the sidequests in MM, which all rewarded me with HPCs I was so annoyed that I decided to simply skip all the sidequests besides the one for the Gilded Sword and play thorugh the plot and defeat MM.
What I could imagine is some system where you don't get HCPs for side quests (but rather "real" rewards) and HCPs can only (!) be found in underground cave systems or other "hidden" places in the overworld. That way you'd still have the joy of HCP-hunting but you don't get disappointed by your side quest rewards.
But really, full HCs do the job just as well if not better. EDIT: Or poe souls, golden bugs or skultulla tokens.

EDIT2: On the issue of ammu and ammu-upgrades: I really liked how LoZ only allowed you to carry 8 bombs at a time. Finding a bomb was like finding something good, precious. That actually made you reconsider using your bombs, in other titles of the series where you could carry up to 100bombs (or something) you just never had to worry about running out of ammu. Bombs where worlds greater in LoZ (more useful, powerful against almost any enemey) than in the later titles anyways, but that's another topic.

Majora's Mask is one of the few games where HCPs didn't bother me. This is because it rewarded you with story. I'm not sure how far you got, Sheik, but each time you complete a series of tasks in the Bomber notebook, you get a new scene added to the ending when you finish the game. I found that quite rewarding!

And yes, indeed, I greatly prefer Gold Skulltula-style token collection. One way or another, I will have those in DoR.

Well it really just depends to me. If I have to do a series of hard things, I really expect a magic or heart container, but when it's a simple secret on a screen, a hearth container piece is very generous.

I agree that it's a proportional reward for a small enough secret, but I think there are problems in relying too much on those small secrets. You see, there have to be at least four times as many of those small secrets in order to yield the same reward. It's just... an awkward way to treasure hunt, in my opinion.

I understand your POV and I agree with you on many aspects, but, in the long run, I enjoy HCPs. In Ocarina of Time, I remember I spent a lot of time searching for all of the HCPs, and when I found them, I felt pretty triumphant. It was like a little reward for going out of you way to explore a bit, rather than just breezing through the game. As far as rewards for sidequests go, though, I don't think they're a good idea, unless it's something as simple as delivering a lost puppy in Hyrule Market. However, I enjoy finding them scattered across maps and what not.

I understand your satisfaction, but does that satisfaction come from the Heart Container Piece itself, or from simply being able to check off those quests from your list?...

If you don't feel like the HCPs are anything worth writing home about, then you're just using your life meter as a way to tell whether you have found all the items that are out there. If Zelda wasn't quite so consistent about the number of hearts it gives you (20 max in all the recent games), you might not care so much about the number.

For instance, when I play Majora's Mask, I pay a lot more attention to the Bomber's notebook than I do to the heart meter. The heart meter is just a quick way to estimate how much I have left to do, without opening up the subscreen. Aside from a few Heart Pieces scattered around the overworld and in dungeons, that's about it, really.

Anyway, as I mentioned earlier, I quite enjoyed hunting Golden Skulltulas in OoT (even though the game stopped giving you worthwhile rewards after about 50). I've enjoyed token-hunting in every game where I've encountered a set number of collectible tokens... even some non-Zelda games. Dragon Quest IV had Mini-Medals scattered everywhere, and you got incremental rewards for finding more and more of them. That was SO much more satisfying than HCPs, because the incremental rewards were pretty powerful, and you really had to search to get the last, best items.



EDIT:

I'm surprised no one has brought up the "hearts as exp." system from LoZ and MM - you know, where you needed a certain amount of hearts to wield a better sword, or progress through that maze behind the waterfall (I can't remember what was at the end of that though. Probably some kind of mask). This gives the player added incentive to track down the HC(P)s beyond just their life benefits.

TP had a similar thing with that arena dungeon thing in Gerudo Valley. You didn't need the hearts, but it was damn tough to get through without them.

I wouldn't really count the Cave of Ordeals in TP (I assume that's what you're talking about), because it's just a battle-based bonus dungeon that is particularly difficult. I guess what sets it apart is just that it's optional. If they had chosen to make the "final" dungeon that difficult, it would have been quite a different style of "incentive to explore."

Though, personally, I never bothered racking up hearts for that cave. I just made sure I had enough bottles, filled them with good stuff, and dived in.

Anyway, I like bonus caves, but it'd be nice if that wasn't the ONLY part of the game that was difficult enough to require preparation. But now we're getting into another subject, the complaint that "recent official Zelda games just aren't hard enough..."

[Tree]

Okay, heres a reasonable reason I like heart container pieces. 1: I just love collecting them before you head to the next dungeon. It makes the game a bit longer so you don't blow through it you know.

2: I just like 100% games. Getting the Heart container pieces counts. I love getting them more then some other items.

3: They give you some extra life. Get that. Extra. You don't have to get them. But in some Zelda games, I like getting them.
I hope that's a reasonable response.

Edited by Keiichi123, 20 March 2011 - 01:04 PM.

[Nathaniel]

Not sure if any of this was mentioned or not (lots of reading), but another idea would be to have more heart pieces earlier in a quest, and then have more full heart containers later in the quest. It wouldn't be ideal, but would be closer to getting benefits more fitting to where you are in the quest. You could also play around a bit with the frequency in which you obtain HCPs relative to where you are in a quest, but it probably would still be a limiting factor on the overall balance.

However, there are alternatives for having to collect many of the same item than to do so with heart container pieces, if the matter is having something to fill much of the overworld with. If it's possible, a script could be used for creating another collectible item, such as skulltulas or seashells. It's completely optional, but is also a means of saying you completed 100% of a quest, and being rewarded with a very beneficial item for doing so. But it is mainly for the satisfaction of saying you did everything.

Another thing to toy with through scripting (again, if possible) is to have a second form of currency, which is what you must use in a special shop that only accepts that form, such as was the case with the Ore Chunks, which can typically be found one at a time and much less often than rupees. This was a great addition to the Zelda series simply for the fact that you could manipulate the rupee value of each Ore Chunk, and technically (but no directly) sell items worth more than 999 rupees.

I also think it's perfectly okay to not have every dead end lead to a reward, or to not have almost every screen contain an entrance to something or an item. Exploring the entire overworld by itself can be a form of satisfaction. It's okay to have a few empty dead ends. I think it's wrong to feel entitled to getting a reward for every dead end we come across. In the real world, trying hard doesn't always give the desired benefits, but you are more likely to get them from doing so. Also, it's okay to include penalties for finding the wrong secrets, such is the case with the door repair charges in the 1st and 2nd quest. However, don't have too many of those, otherwise the quest easily becomes one to greatly dislike. At worst they should be rare and minor setbacks for trying to discover everything.

Kind of rambled there, but the point I was trying to make is that there are more creative alternatives to seeking some of the same benefits, regardless of whether you use scripting or don't use it at all. You can fill an overworld with rewards without the need to do the exact same thing that most other quests do. It just takes some thinking outside of the box.