186 replies to this topic

[Feenicks]

To be honest, I'm finding these levels really... mediocre? They're playable, yes, but I can't really pinpoint any aspect that makes them really stand out.

...Here's the thing. Aside from the palette, I really wouldn't be able to distinguish one of your levels from the next. A and C use virtually identical sprite setups, for instance, and you pretty much reuse identical puzzles in different dungeons. And to be honest, you seem to be boxing in your screens for the sake of boxing them in, and not to make combat or navigation more difficult.
To me, these are sketches. There's some good ideas contained in them, but holistically the levels themselves are nothing special.

Now, how do we go about making these levels better? The easiest way, I think, would be to bring out at least one theme in each of the levels, to at least differentiate themselves from one another; right now, all the levels behave fairly similarly thematically and design-wise. Level A has the misdirection and all; Level B has spikes and wizzrobes, Level C has block-related puzzles, and Level D has hookshots and rafts. All of those have the potential to be really nice themes to play with, and could help make your levels really interesting. But while heavy usage of themes can makes for really nice levels, that's only part of the issue here.

I've outright quit playing several quests because I've had no idea of how to progress - not because of puzzles or whatnot, but because the levels began to ramble, branching out and meandering in a manner that gives no indication of progress or even . Thankfully your level design is not that bad, but you seem to be running into a different issue with your design; oftentimes, the way to go or the solution to a puzzle seems far to arbitrary. Sometimes this can't be avoided - with armoses, for example. However, most other times it's best to actually give some indication of the intended solution at least somewhere, especially if the solution is pretty much arbitrary (worst offender - that room with the 2x2 thing for the blocks, in addition to the four 1x1 markers. I have no idea on how to actually complete the puzzle, given how arbitrary the blocks appearing seems to be). However, I'm most aggravated about the multiple rooms that outright lock you in - the one room with the whistle in A, the 'leave money or life' guy in (C?) - because they're both annoying and pointless, given how easy it is to Quit -> Continue out of them. Please either get rid of them or rework them so that they're not that silly.

Lastly, if you're going to be a jerk, at least make it so that it doesn't require a long and fairly pointless trek to get hit by a blue bubble or regain a magic shield (which you can't even do, given the inclusive nature of the dungeon).

So yeah. These are just eh, and are really nothing special.
[So why didn't I mention much about Level D? It was glitchy]

[Mero]

My dungeons aren't suppose to stand out from each other except for the puzzle elements I used. Barring level 4 which is a freeform interior dungeon. And yes actually I did make the rooms small to make combat more difficult, but you wouldn't know that. The whistle room is a trap. You're suppose to grab it with the boomerang. The block puzzles solution is the same push every block before placing them on the markers. And keep doing that until you figure out which markers spawn blocks and which ones don't. There you have the solution. And I seemed to forget to make it so you can't continue quit out of the rooms that lock you in, besides the whistle room which you need to if you fell for my evil trap. Lastly I wasn't being a jerk, I was being completely fair when making these dungeons, sure the difficulty weaves a bit. But that's fine because they're practice dungeons and are unpassworded so you can equip yourself as you see fit.

Also how is Level D glitchy?

[Feenicks]

Well, to be fair it's less that it's glitchy and more that it has kinda significant bugs - specifically, 1) one of the passageways instead leads to a cave screen, and 2) I'm pretty sure setting fire to the grave (which is again arbitrary) is supposed to do something that lets you access the right-hand part of the screen, instead of just disappearing.

You say that part of the puzzle of that room is figuring out what order to push the blocks in. I'll grant you that. However, the fact that in order to reset the puzzle you have to redo the block-pushing in the room south is the deal-breaker here. It'd be padding even without needing to redo it each time you mess up on the above screen, and honestly people just aren't going to bother with that unless there's some other factor pushing them forwards.

Also; for that aforementioned 'evil trap' of yours... at least give some indication that the boomerang can actually do that, or make it so that you aren't boxed in with the whistle. As it is now, there's no indication that the boomerang actually has that ability.

Also also; being a jerk has nothing to do with weaving difficulty. What you did there was just make more work - more useless work - for the player, which is again hardly in your best interests in terms of keeping players interested.

[Mero]

Setting fire to the grave gets rid of a whirlpool that allows you to leave the tunnel, well get to the otherside and be told by a goriya that the show's over.

[Cukeman]

Deleted because I totally misread the post I was responding to.

Edited by Cukeman, 15 October 2011 - 04:21 AM.

[Moosh]

I played Level-D and it was lots of fun, aside from that one part where you had to push a random rock to make stairs appear. I'm all for keeping that, but at least have all the other rocks be pushable with nothing under them so it doesn't cause a "Have I already pushed X rock from Y direction?" problems scenario. I was disappointed that there was no scripted boss to greet me at the end. Your scripts are simply amazing! I wanna be more like you someday.

[Mero]

Thank you poke, it means a lot to me to hear you say that.

[Feenicks]

I can't agree with this. It's like saying Nintendo's pick a chest puzzles are an epic fail because people
can use save states on an emulator. I'm not even going to password my quest. If people want to break
the game that's not my fault. Nothing personal. I just don't think that is a design flaw. It's someone
who doesn't want to enjoy the game as is.

I can't wait to try out these dungeons BB

I'll admit that the leaving money or life room isn't really the best thing to be com...
No, actually, I'll rescind that. Here it's being used strictly as a hint room in which you're forced to give up a heart container, unless you've somehow managed to pick up the key beforehand or acquired 50 rupees along the way. I don't see a justifiable reason for doing this - at least most other incarnations of this actually use it so that there is something to gain (usually passage to the rest of the dungeon) from paying up. Here? No, which makes just Quit -> Continuing (hardly the same thing as a savestate, given that you could actually do this in the original LoZ, albeit with a death tacked onto your total) a much more attractive option. Maybe if the hint was given in a separate room which was unlocked by paying (or the key needed to progress was actually given by paying up) I wouldn't be so aggravated about this.
As for the whistle, you would have to reset anyway, given that there is no way out.
[...and by the way, I would consider those less puzzles and more outright luck, save OoT's incarnation of it, where you could basically just use the Lens of Truth and outright cheat your way through it.]
Let it just be said that while I do like old-school games and a decent difficulty, I can't really stand most forms of old-school padding.

[Mero]

Actually there not luck based, so there puzzles. You just need to use the smart side of the brain which you seem to lack. Also, did you ever think that I might of combined the hint room and the leave money or life room into one? No you didn't.

[Imzogelmo]

I just found these and played through all 4. I enjoyed them all, and give them a 4/5 overall. I'll hide the rest of my comments so others can enjoy.

Spoiler

In A, I like how you did a misdirection, it was really clever. The boomerang-the-whistle trick got me, though.

In C, the block puzzles in the rooms with Pols Voices were a bit aggravating, but once I figured out the pattern it wasn't too bad. The thing with the statues in the entry room though, seemed totally arbitrary (no way to know what to do without trial and error).

I found an extra key in both A and B. Is there a reason for that?

When getting the triforce in A and C, it warped me back to the item cellar screen. Not sure if that's a glitch or what.

When I got the whistle in C, I left the screen to the right. Hilarity ensued.

I liked dungeon D's layout. The freeform style of it was a nice addition.

Edited by Imzogelmo, 11 October 2011 - 02:41 PM.

[Mero]

Good to hear Imzogelmo, but which one was you're favorite? BTW Is you're avatar suppose to be a Fokka, it reminds me of those dreaded birdmen of doom for obvious reasons.

Also, I'm working on another interior cave/dungeon hybrid and that will be the last one for a while, but who knows, I might surprise you guys with something else such as a boss demo.

Edited by blackbishop89, 11 October 2011 - 07:48 PM.

[Imzogelmo]

C was my favorite, despite the frustration of the block puzzles. Well, frustration = challenge, and I like a challenge.

D was a close second, but more for aesthetic reasons than cerebral ones.

A and B would be about equal in my estimation.

----
And yes, it's a Fokka, everybody's "favorite" evil bird knight of doom.

[Mero]

Reread you're post Feenicks and you're right about them being sketches. They aren't suppose to stand out at all, and are suppose to be fun. Would you consider them fun?

[Feenicks]

I guess the issue I have with these dungeons is that I'm kinda lacking the feeling of progression that I like to see in dungeons. While I did enjoy them to a degree, there's none of the 'how do I get to [there]' that was present even in the original Z1 dungeons, or the sense of relief (or dread, take your pick) when I finally find a boss door or item or something.
I don't really know. I guess the issue I have is that you're not being clever enough with your dungeon design? Although I didn't actually ever get very far in it (I gave up on Level 4 after not playing for a while), I really liked how HD:DX has dungeons that are absurdly labyrinthine and complex yet keep a sense of forward momentum going. I don't really have the feeling, sadly, that your dungeon design will pan out so nicely, if only because right now these are feeling less like a cohesive dungeon and a more like a progression of rooms arranged into a dungeon. I realize that you've previously said that you're working on the puzzles more in these rather than the dungeon design as a whole, but the most devilish and interesting puzzles (not to mention the ones that feel best when you've actually figured them out) are easily the ones that take the whole dungeon into account, weaving itself into a tangle and leaving you to tease out the correct way to get yourself through it.
...which I guess you can practice with these!

tldr; sure they're kinda fun, but I'd have more fun with these if the dungeon design as a whole was tighter.

[Mero]

Here's number 5. http://blackbishop89...st/dungeon5.qst