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Stop overcrowding the screens


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#1 Ta-QS

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 12:32 AM

Certain "professionals" have a habit of overcrowding each single screen with too much details and objects.
ZC already has such a small game space why do you have to waste it even more by placing 1000 trees and cliffs ?
Each screen being a obstacle run is NO fun.
Link needs alot of space to feel good.
I guess you all havent played the original titles for ages,
LOZ, LTTP, LA, OS, OA and MC don't have even 1 quarter as much objects and obstacles as you place.
If you want detail and good graphics, make each single tile awesome but dont kill the zeldaness by overcrowding everything.
And yes, i mean all of you.

Edited by Ta-QS, 07 November 2006 - 12:34 AM.


#2 Revfan9

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 02:15 AM

?_?

In which quests do you see overcrowding, besides mine?

#3 Ta-QS

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 05:09 AM

Ok. I let some pictures do the talk :

GOOD EXAMPLE (Original Zeldas with tons of free space) :
LTTP :
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LA:
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OS:
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http://www.adictosaz...asonsscreen.jpg

OA:
http://www.adictosaz...fagesscreen.jpg

MC:
http://www.eurogamer...view_i_5824.jpg
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BAD EXAMPLE (No space, Horrors of overcrowding, ZC Style) :
Gashin
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Noel
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Radien
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Revfan9
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Ian
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Shoelace
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Do you see any difference between the good and bad ??
This are extreme examples, but i hope i made my point clear.
Now imagine how the original Zeldas would play like if they were this overcrowded,
giving you only 1 tile wide one way lanes to walk on instead the grande space.
THEY WOULD SUCK.
Yes, they did have narrow passages
but it was like 90 % open space and 10 % narrow passage.
In ZC it's the exact opposite.
Nintendo didnt make those screens so empty because they were lazy.
They knew how important space is.
Now you should remember too, or else Link will die out of claustrophobia.
icon_thumbsdown.gif icon_thumbsdown.gif icon_thumbsdown.gif icon_thumbsdown.gif icon_thumbsdown.gif

#4 Kite

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 09:06 AM

I don't see how it matters. icon_shrug.gif

The original Zelda's overworld had about as much screen space per screen as some of those examples you gave of bad design. True, there are trees and cliffs everywhere. However, I don't see how this is so bad given the fact that most of the examples you gave of good design were designed for games that have larger rooms than what ZC handles. If one were to space things out as much as you are suggesting they should, it would take several maps to make an overworld as detailed and complete as ALTTP. This just isn't practical for most quest makers.

Unlike ALTTP and friends, ZC can only be in one area at a time. Due to this, the player is going to spend more than a second there. If the area looks bland, then it won't be as interesting. The reason that the "let Link breathe" formula works for ALTTP and friends is because each screen area is part of a larger room that you can walk through all parts of without having to load another room. Thus, you can see that everything links up to a larger area and you wouldn't get quite as bored with it.

One could argue that the LA and Oracle pics should be more like what ZC should have, but you are hardly being fair with the bad examples you gave if this is the case: you only gave two examples that had graphics similar to LA.

Don't get me wrong: it is possible to overcrowd a screen and some of those examples you gave are doing so. I just don't think all the examples you have given are all that bad given their graphics style.

#5 Deathbringer

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 09:18 AM

IPB Image
...That's pathetic. You want all of our screens like that? Truly pathetic. Infact, what Lttp lacked was overworlds. Besides that, the Season isle from HoD is a dungeon level. You want all overworld things to be so very open? You would make our quests much more dull and boring if we were to listen to you.

#6 Sharon Daniel

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 09:31 AM

Ta-QS, please do not post images that are over 400x400 pixels in size. Instead, use URL tags to link to the images. I edited your post to remove the large images. icon_wink.gif

#7 Ta-QS

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 09:51 AM

Errr.. Lttp had the best of all overworlds. But ok to each his own.
And no, I dont want you to make dull and boring screens.
I said it are EXTREME examples.
I want you to find the middle thing between open spaces and interesting graphics.

LA and company dont scroll in the overworld and they still managed to incorporate large free areas on almost every screen.
And it matters heavily. A no space, overcrowded overwolrd ala darkflame wolf is absolutly not fun to play.
It's like destroying the freedom original zelda games have. No scrolling cant defend this,
The only thing that can is that you didnt have the walk diagonal option so far,
therefore making link move on small trails instead being free.
But now you have it and now it's time to rethink design and give link back his freedom.
This is just one of many reasons why none of you have been able to make a quest that feels even remotely like a original zelda.
And no it's not ZC that couldn't pull it off.
Luckily iam not dependent on you. Just sharing the knowledge.



%0Ó-Òz



#8 Nimono

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 09:59 AM

That's just sad. You really should think more before telling us not to make our screens so "crowded". See, in all technicality, LA and the Oracles games WERE crowded! They use smaller screens than ZC, so ZC screens aren't as crowded as LA and Oracles screens. Besides, the less time it takes to go through an overworld, the worse it is. There's a fine line between too open and too cramped/crowded. No quest I've ever played is as crowded as you say. Besides, not everyone is going to make a perfect rectangle on each screen you're allowed to walk on- That's boring. Besides, why should we listen? These are OUR quests- Let us do what WE want to do on them. If we want big, huge spaces to walk around on on the overworld, that's OUR choice, not yours. It'd be your OPINION, but that doesn't mean that just because YOU don't like what we do that we have to do what YOU want us to do. If you really want a "less-crowded" overworld on a quest, go make your own. Just leave US out of it- We don't have time to listen to someone telling us we're making something too cramped and we absolutely MUST "fix" it. Now, I wouldn't be saying that if you were simply SUGGESTING that we add a little more open space in our overworld screens, but the way you worded that, you're actually saying that since you think our overworlds are too cramped by the standards OF ZELDA GAMES THAT CAME AFTER ZLEDA 1, that we absolutely have to change them to meet YOUR visions. It's like you're telling us to make your entire quest for you so you can take all the credit for making a good quest when you did NOTHING.

...Sorry if that was rude. But it's the truth I see! (Though it may not be the truth that everyone else sees...)

Edit: And by the way, stop dissing people's quests just because of new features. DFW'S QUESTS WERE MADE WAY BEFORE LTTP MOVEMENT WAS EVEN MADE! And by the way, Zelda Classic isn't about making a game that feels like Zelda! Why do you think Exate made METROID quests? Why do you think I'M making a Metroid quest? Why are people using scripts? ALL TO MAKE A GREAT QUEST. Sure, it's breaking away from Zelda, but if you absolutely HAD to make a quest feel like Zelda, well, no one would've made all those great quests, features, or tiles because we were limited to the look and feel of Zelda 1.

Edited by Matthew, 07 November 2006 - 10:03 AM.


#9 Koh

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 10:02 AM

well thats kind of like my quest. Some places are a little crowded and yet some places are a little dull. Some people could point out a few rooms that look perfect, and everyone who has played it said level-3 was the best because it had more detail and gameplay than any other dungeon. Detail is sometimes the key to great gameplay. Especically for me. I would never (not even the 1st quest) play any quest that uses the classic tileset cause I despise that tileset(no offense, my opinion). In order to grab my attention, it would have to be redone in the Zero tileset, which is like the classic, but way over 90% better. for a lot of people, detail is the key to a good quest, but I do agree with you. There is a such thing as Too MUCH detail.

#10 Moonbread

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 10:06 AM

ALttP had the screen focused on Link, and the screens were much larger. True enough, sometimes open spaces are nice, but if every screen was open spaced, it would get boring. The screens also depend on what kind of area and how many enemies they have on them.

Look at the shot's you gave us.

Gashin: Gashin's first shot. I don't think there were any enemies, and if there were, they were probably keese, and it appears he has a boomerang, which makes them easy to kill. And the other shot has a mountainous area with only 2 octorocks. You really don't need the entire screenshot to fight 2 octorocks.

NoeL: NoeL's screen is pretty open. There's only 2 lanmolas, and their is plenty of space to kill them with. The mountains may look like it doesn't have a lot of space, but it does.

Radien: Radien's shot is perhaps the easiest example. It looks like an entrance to maybe a dungeon or another area. As far as I'm concerned, I didn't realize we needed the whole screen for an entrance to a dungeon or another area.


Well, I'm lazy, but I think you got the point. It's nice to have some open screens, but if every screen is open in your quest/, you're only going to get 1 or 2 stars in that quest. It's called "balance" Balance everything out, and there you go.

By the way, we have diagonal walking. But it's only for 2.11 betas icon_wink.gif

#11 Revfan9

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 10:53 AM

QUOTE(Ta-QS @ Nov 7 2006, 05:09 AM) View Post

Revfan9
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QUOTE(Revfan)

besides mine


See, you lost your whole argument there. I am far, FAR from being an expert, and I admit that I do in fact need to leave my screens more open. But, as Nick said, ZC is different from Zelda. Not only in technical terms, but in design terms as well. Just try making your own quest, you'll see. I also don't think that you have the right to complain about other's quests unless you have made your own, and you have an argument as to why your quest is superior. This topic is nothing but useless trolling if you ask me.

#12 Nimono

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 10:58 AM

QUOTE(Revfan9 @ Nov 7 2006, 10:53 AM) View Post

See, you lost your whole argument there. I am far, FAR from being an expert, and I admit that I do in fact need to leave my screens more open. But, as Nick said, ZC is different from Zelda. Not only in technical terms, but in design terms as well. Just try making your own quest, you'll see. I also don't think that you have the right to complain about other's quests unless you have made your own, and you have an argument as to why your quest is superior. This topic is nothing but useless trolling if you ask me.

I wholeheartedly agree- This thread is POINTLESS. (I have no idea what "trolling" is. Care to explain for me, please?) But you're right- You can't complain about someone's quests until you've made you're own- Then you'll see how hard it is to fit everything you want into a single screen and STLL be able to have plenty of room left to walk. I'm going over to ZC.com now, and I won't be surprised if this person left this exact same type of thread over there.

#13 Rocksfan13

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 11:03 AM

A lot of quest makers put in a lot of work into their quests and it takes a lot of time. But if you're going to compare it to the Nintedo side of things, of course they aren't going to look right.
ZC is totally custom. It would be silly to think that you could make an EXACT replica of an original quest. It's just not going to happen.
I agree that detail is key to a quest and some makers are keen to keeping to that. If they take three quarters of the screen to complete that, then so be it. As long as it's entertaining, it's fine.


#14 ShadowTiger

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 11:22 AM

I'm reading this topic, and I'm pretty much agreeing with Revfan; this topic is pointless. Unless you're going to enter a debate on the practicalities of open space vs less amounts of space, then it's just based on the questmakers preference. Some people like wide open spaces, and others like their screens to be very, very detailed and interesting to look at and walk through.

Thus, it's just a matter of individual opinion and preference, and I'm not really sure why there are people who insist that their own personal opinion and preference should take precedence over anyone else's in this argument.

#15 Ta-QS

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 11:33 AM

This thread started with me simply giving advice.
But it looks like you dont need it. Fine. Let it turn to flame then.
Let me just tell you that I AM working on a "quest".
It has probably been longer in the making than you've been on this earth.
And when it is done it will surpass ALL of Nintendo original Zeldas including TP.
It will be better than all of your quests combined.
You may laugh now, but you just wait.

I abandoned this community before, because of all the 10 year old ignorant zelda fans making bad quests and giving Zelda a bad name.
Now, I realize the likes of me have absolutly no buisness here.



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