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Let's talk about DKC3. (DKC General Thread)


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#1 Anthus

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 04:42 PM

The black sheep of the epic SNES trilogy. Panned by many, and considered the weakest entry in the trilogy. Popular opinion is that this game is clearly the worst, but why is that? Why have we come to regard this game as such a low note for the original series? Is it because the music isn't as good? Is it because Kiddy Kong is a shitty, boring (albeit cute) character? Is it cause Diddy is nowhere to be found? Is it cause the level design lacks that magical charm of the first two games? Is it because the animal buddies aren't as good? Or, was this actually the most innovative game in the trilogy? I'm going to try to dissect this game, and what it is I think rubs people the wrong way about it.

 

For starters, you should know that, approximately once a year, usually around this time, I play through DKC1 and 2 back to back. Sometimes, like, every other year, I'll play DKC3. I didn't grow up with DKC3, so it doesn't have that formative nostalgic impact of the first two games. I remember the first time I actually played it was around five/ six years ago. As far as a follow up to DKC2, I was immediately disappointed. Gone were the atmospheric tunes, and unique levels, and what we got was a game that used generic, tropey areas, and lacked that kinetic sense of action the first two games capture so well. I beat it, but didn't 100% it. A year or so later, I gave it another shot. I got all the extra stuff, and beat the lost world. I was still underwhelmed, but the game had somehow managed to grow on me, and I generally enjoyed playing it, even if I didn't find it to be up snuff with the others, and there is one boss, and a few levels in particular that single handily make this game worse off, but I'll get to those, as they are an important part of why I think this game rubbed people the wrong way as a direct sequel to one of the greatest platformers of all time.

 

Let's start out positive. I'd like to outline the things that I think DKC3 did rather well, and in some ways, may have surpassed its predecessors, as this is important when looking at the entire package. So, the first and most important question is, is it fun? Well, yeah. If you have never played either of the first two, you'd probably enjoy this game as a stand alone platformer. It's colorful, the graphics are amazing, the mechanics in place are pretty solid -- mostly, and most of the level designs are decent enough. Where the cracks start to show is if you do begin to compare this to the prequels. Visually, it's about as good as DKC2, maybe a little better in some areas (the dock/ water levels look pretty good), but let's move on from graphics for a minute.

 

The biggest thing that I think this game does well, and maybe even better than the first two is, the world map. You can freely travel around the world select screen, and you can even do some of the later worlds out of order. This is a really nice change, and lets you take different paths through the game. Because of this, the game is more focused on "story", and having some semblance of characters to inhabit the world. In fact, this is the first time we see things besides Kongs, and Kremlings and other animal baddies. There are the Brother Bears which populate the Northern Kremisphere (Canada) and you will have to help a few to progress, but a lot of them offer extras to do simply for completion. The way you travel is, you rent a vehicle from Funky. These are vehicles that primarily traverse water, and as you clear more worlds, you'll get parts to build more vehicles to allow you to branch out further into the world. This is a really cool idea, and again, I think it is the strongest point of this game. Scattered around the world map are various little caves with a "Simon Says" style mini game which rewards you with a banana bird. Find all of these, and good stuff happens. This game has a lot of stuff in this world. There's more to collect than the last games, and this time, your coin totals actually save between playthroughs; a change that is objectively better than DKC2. This is where you can tell Rare really began to hit its stride with the "collectathon" formula. One other aspect is does better than DKC2 is bonus rooms. The bonus rooms remain consistently unique, reusing stuff from DKC2, but also adding in a new challenge or two. I genuinely enjoy these bonus stages equally to the ones in DKC2. You can also retry most bonus barrel stages more easily without having to replay the entire stage. 

 

But, that is where the good things stop with the world design. Since you are able to access the later worlds (worlds after world 2) out of order in pairs, the difficulty kind of just.. hits a point than stays there. Again, we compare; in the first two games, each world was a brand new area, with new level themes, and new gimmicks (okay, I know DKC1 has more cave levels than any other stage, and the final third is mostly cave levels, but they're fun..). Each world felt new. The challenge consistently ramped up from DKC2's lava filled caves, through the murky swamp, and ups the anti even more in Krazy Kremland. You never know what to expect. In DKC3, by the time you reach worlds 3/4, you'll basically have seen every level type this game has to offer, and there are fewer than in DKC2. At this point, the momentum of the game slows a lot. The part below is from memory, a list of all the level styles in the three games:

 

DKC1 - 12, DKC2 - 15, DKC3 - 11

 

So yeah, DKC3 has less level themes than even the first game, with DKC2 having by far the most unique level themes. DKC3 uses more palette cycling of level themes, but can you see the problem here? If compared to its prequels, there just isn't as much game here, and what is here, gets recycled quickly. I'm going to segue here into the level designs themselves. There's a decent amount of variety, and some cool gimmicks here, for sure. In fact, there are some really good levels here. The mountain/ cliff levels, and some of the factory levels really capture that kinetic vibe. Almost every level has its own gimmick. That should be a good thing, right? All that variety. Well, yes, and no. I feel like since they tried to put so much stuff in this game, a lot of the stuff just feels like wasted potential, or just not very well implemented. There's a stage in the factory world that kind of tries to be like a minecart stage, but it is set in the drain pipes. It's not inherently bad, but it's just like.. what? Why not just make a regular amusement park, or minecart level? The themeing doesn't make sense, the level design is not good because it relies very heavily on trial and error, and the graphic design limits the amount of warning the level designers can give the player. It's a tunnel with random pits like battletoads or some shit. The roller-coaster styled minecart level of yore work really well, and feel fun because there is a flow, and the jumps are well choreographed to the player with a quick eye. A good example of this in DKC3 is, the stage, Tearaway Toboggan in world 5. It captures the minecart vibe, while feeling fresh, and is honestly, one of the best levels in the game, imo (But, I'm that guy that loves all the minecart levels, and the rocket barrel stages in Returns, so I'm crazy don't listen to me). But, they end up reusing a lot of the themes, and they just don't feel as good as the previous two games. I know this is all subjective, but it's just how I feel.

 

Then let me talk about the glaring problem with level design in some of these levels. Some sick, satanic bastard at Rare had this great idea to try to implement puzzles into an action platformer. This evil Hitler incarnate took all of his hatred, and rage towards mankind and created the God forsaken "Warehouse Levels". DOES THIS LOOK FUN? DOES THIS LOOK LIKE A GOOD LEVEL? I didn't think so either. The pacing is shattered into millions of confused peices when you get to levels like this. These.. "puzzle" levels all have one thing in common: Wasting your fucking time! That's right. You're not stomping baddies, and blasting through barrels. No, you're hunting down stupid timed switches, and killing all the enemies to open a door like that God awful Lergend of Zorda game. Why? Who thought this was a good idea? I'll be the first to admit, I may be overreacting here, but these levels piss me off to no end, and I dread them on subsequent playthroughs of this otherwise decent game. I'm not saying there weren't some levels in the others that make you wait (like the stop 'n' go station or tanked up trouble in 1, or the level with the hot air baloons in 2) but those levels still somehow remain fun. I can't put my finger on why, exactly, but they still feel more kinetic.

 

Kinetic is a world I've used a few times. Think back to your playthrough of DKC 1, and 2. If you are like me, the most memorable parts are where you've got the stages mastered, and the mechanics down, and a skilled player can fly through the stages like a Sonic game. In fact, the creators actually admitted they were inspired by the "kinetic action" of the Sonic series when designing these levels. It feels good, and satisfying to rely on your skill to master a level full of hazards. It's satisfying. That's why we play these games. Puzzle elements have no business in this series, at least not in their current form in DKC3. There are many levels in DKC3 where you are just waiting for a platform to come down, or waiting for an enemy pattern to move. Now this is fine in moderation, but they go crazy here. Levels aren't as long, and as focused on running and jumping. They try to encourage you to explore, but the game suffers a mild identity crisis when these two design philosophies are mashed up into each other, and especially so in stages where they try to use both styles. And where's the barrel blast stages? There's maybe three or four small barrel blasting segments in the game. This is a DKC game, right?

 

Part of these design issues can be attributed to one thing: They had a different team make this. Yep, Rare's top talent who crafted the first two were off working on (presumably) Banjo, Wave Race, and all those other AAA N64 games that came out at the same time. Yeah, DKC3 came out after the N64. When you go to Wrinkly's save cave, she will literally be playing freakin' SM64! If that's not telling you were they were headed, then I don't know what will. David Wise is not composing the music here so instead we get this shit heap sound track. I'll admit, it had about 3 great songs. Whereas virtually every freaking song in the first two were memorable, epic, and just damn good. Let's compare the first stage music from the games. Each one does a good job to let you know what you are in for, and in DKC3's case, it is clearly a pace behind it's prequels: Jungle Japes starts off simple with some drums. You are learning the controls. Then, it ramps up into this awesome crescendo as you learn to run, and jump off of enemies, riveting you from start to finish. It still gives me goosebumps to this day. It lets me know that I AM KONG and I AM A BADASS! Listen to Gangplank Galleon, it does pretty much the same thing. Then... Oof, here we are, Lakeside Limbo. It's just... like, wtf is this? It just sounds goofy as hell, and makes it hard to take it seriously. Music is subjective, but surely you can at least kind of see my point here.

 

Characters. What about the playable characters, and animal buddies? You play as Dixie, so it's gotta be good right? Well, yeah, when you are playing as her. Then you have Kiddy. It's like, they looked at DK from the first game, and said, "okay, how can we make him even slower, and more cumbersome?" He moves slow as hell, and has a large hitbox, making some stages like Low-G Labyrinth, or Ripsaw Rage fuck awful, and making my heart ache for Dixie, or Diddy, or even Donkey! DKC2 introduced the team up/ throwing mechanic. This game also has it, but now each Kong has the own unique way of being thrown. This could have worked well, but since you'll probably never want to play as Kiddy, you'll probably not care. Kiddy isn't all bad, he can kill certain enemies the Dixie's petite frame can't harm, much like Donkey in 1, but other than that, there is absolutely no reason to want to play as him. Dixie, and Diddy are just, hands down, objectively more fun to control. I feel like the people that really hate this game consider Kiddy to be one of the biggest detractors from its quality as a game. Where is Diddy? I honestly forget if he got captured or what, cause I surely don't play these games for their stories. :P

 

They even found a way to make animals buddies lame. The only returning buddies in their original forms are Engard, and Squitter. You also have a purple Squawks that can.. lift.. barrels? And a small bird that.. jumps.. when you.. jump..? Okay.. Sure. Let's not forget about Ellie the Elephant. Poor Ellie, I'm about to rip her a new one.. THIS SHIT IS RETARDED LIKE WHAT ARE YOU SERIOUS WHERE'S RAMBI FFS NO! Ellie is bad. She is boring to play as. She gets spooked by Squeaks. She moves slow, and has a big hitbox, and can't jump as high as a Kong. She can suck up water, and fire it back, which is cool, but then... oh... ohhhhhhh. But then, they had to go and make a boss with this mechanic. Let me show you the dumbest boss in the history of the franchise. This piece of dumb shit makes me want to snap my controller. It looks easy, but it is so dumb. The core of this battle is, you guessed it, WAIT AROUND for the boss to show its weak point, then use the slippery ass controls for this dumb fuck elephant to shoot it in the eyes, OH BUT BE CAREFUL CAUSE ITS WATER WILL PUSH YOU OFF THE STAGE IN SUCH A TROLL, WORSE THEN MOLDORM FASHION!

 

 

It's a platforming masterpiece, 11/10, go play it now.

 

DKC3 is far from perfect, but honestly.. it's not a bad game. It's still fun even with its flaws. It's still a Donkey Kong Country game. It still has some glimmers of brilliance, even if it falls on its face at times. What do you think? I know there's some DKC fans here, so let me know how you feel about this game. Maybe you love it? That's cool, please help me understand why!


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#2 kurt91

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 07:22 PM

I only had DKC2 growing up. I had played the first game, and tried the third, but only personally owned the second game. I did go back and play the other two games on emulator later on, though.

 

The original Donkey Kong Country wasn't bad. The graphics looked nice, but parts of the game were rather rough around the edges. You could tell the direction that they were wanting to go with the graphics, but they weren't quite there yet. For instance, the tires that you could roll along the ground. They visually did not look like they belonged there, and looked like somebody just put the picture on top of the screen. The later two games were a bit better at getting the prerendered graphics to all blend in well together.

 

I really liked the mechanic in the game where both characters had their own strengths and weaknesses, but to be fair, it was done in a way that made Diddy feel underpowered. Donkey Kong was able to take out larger enemies, and do moves to strike the ground and reveal secrets. You were ALWAYS playing as DK, unless you either got hit and was left with Diddy, or you were trying to save DK for when you needed him, in case you got hit.

 

DKC2 was much better. The level settings were more unique, and the music was better, in my opinion. The only major problem that I had here was still the imbalance between Dixie and Diddy. Dixie was able to float when jumping, making platforming segments easier. There was nothing that Diddy could do that Dixie could not, and Dixie making general progress easier meant that there wasn't much point in trying to play as Diddy to save Dixie for special occasions. The only "fault" I had with the game was when I hit a point as a kid where I couldn't progress any further due to difficulty. I was stuck for years on the Zinger boss, because I was not skilled at all with controlling Squawks.

 

DKC3 was my least favorite.of the three. First off, the general setting was pretty dull. In DKC1, we were getting to explore factories and mineshafts at points. DKC2 was all bramble areas, pirate ships, an evil carnival of death, haunted woods, etc. DKC3 brought us "Canada, eh?", and there wasn't really anything to set it apart. The only setting that really stood out as unique was the piers, since that hadn't been done before. (EDIT: I suppose the hollowed trees in the forest was another one) Further, the graphical style took a bit of a downgrade as well. The rats looked worse than they did in the second game. The Zingers were replaced with some odd buzzsaw monstrocity. Why?

 

Kiddy was an unneeded addition. There was nothing to set him apart from Donkey Kong in the first game. The plot, as given to the player at the beginning, was that both DK and Diddy were kidnapped. Kiddy's role could have been filled with DK, and they could have made the plot just be that Diddy was captured. Maybe he got overconfident after the second game, and ran after the Kremlings on his own. He could have easily been captured using some of the larger goons that required DK to beat from the first game. Donkey and Dixie teamed up to go get him back. Kiddy Kong was completely unnecessary and pretty much universally disliked.

 

The Bear Brothers were also a bit of an annoyance. We already had the Bonus Coins and the DK Coins. Did we really need long trading sequences as well? They felt like padding to hold back the player from just finishing the game. I guess we needed a way to get Bonus Coins to translate to extra levels, but the Kremlings weren't the most serious bunch. We could have had levels activated through a freaking slot machine (wins/losses predetermined, every 15 coins meant a new level opened, just show the Kongs playing instead of a full slots interface to get the point across) and it would have worked out well.

 

Oddly enough, this is the only game that I can think of where any improvements that I can think of involve removing some sort of addition to the game. Besides, maybe removing some of these additions would have left enough space to let the trailing party member actually have a "standing still" animation. Fun Fact: The trailing party member does not have a working idle animation and walks in place because the developers actually ran out of room and couldn't program that in!


Edited by kurt91, 28 August 2017 - 07:23 PM.

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#3 Anthus

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 08:00 PM

I totally agree that Kiddy was unneeded. It would have been just as good/ bad with Donkey along for the ride, and it would have made more sense. As for the balancing issues, I can totally see where you are coming from there. In DKC2, I always favor Dixie over Diddy save for a few occasions where I want to carry a barrel in front of me/ run faster (boss fights, mostly). In DKC, I actually favored Diddy. He holds barrels in front of him, and can gain momentum much quicker using Y to roll and in a smaller area than DK. He's a lot "tighter" to control than Donkey, but Donkey is needed to crush Krushas and unlike Kiddy, isn't a slow asshole when he get's some momentum going. That's the thing, mechanically, I think the level designers for 3 just didn't try to incorporate faster platforming segments involving momentum, and bouncing. It's a much slower paced game, save for a few segments, so playing as a slow character compared to Dixie is just borrrrring.

 

edit: I also agree about the use of graphics. The later games did a better job at blending the assets, but I kinda liked the moving tires, even if it did look funny. And yeah, I noticed that idle animation (or lack there of) thing too, and its kind of funny how they just let it go.



#4 Air Luigi

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 09:37 PM

DKC3: (10 total)Dock/ Lake
Snow
Forest
Cave
Underwater
Factory
Warehouse
Drain Pipes
Treetop
Mountain

 
 
 
Falls? River? Twelve, at least. But yeah, too much water in this game.
 
I played all of them as a child. DKC was one of my favorite series back them. They aged horribly.. The music and atmosphere still delivers and they are very complete games for their time in a content sense... but man, I don't enjoy anymore the gimmicky/variety nature of these games. DKC1 is the more enjoyable for me now, despite to be the less polished/old, I think is the closest thing to a decent platformer in this series, it has better pacing at least. DKC2 is more complete/epic, but for some reason I find the level design bland now.... and DKC3 is directly unplayable for me now. I still appreciate the "secret stuff", but the platforming... bland as hell, the variety and gimmicks was just a mask to the lacking gameplay.
 
They are a far cry compared to the japanese platformers of the era, I think I wouldn't enjoy these platformers in the past without the awesome graphics and music. I'm still loved all the Castlevania, Mario, Sonic, Megaman, Yoshi's Island and stuff of the era. But I'm only can play DKC if I'm incredibly nostalgic about it, they feel a chore now. Rare stuff was incredibly overrated in general, the only great stuff for them in retrospective were the FPS (Goldeneye/Perfect Dark), imo.


Edited by Air Luigi, 28 August 2017 - 09:43 PM.

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#5 Cukeman

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 01:24 AM

For me a lot of the problem is the dull music and the fact that every time I play Simon Says for a Banana Bird or visit the Brothers Bear I feel like I'm playing something intended for preschoolers (could there be lamer fetch quests and less interesting clues?). I'm also not a fan of the new world navigation, I don't want to swim the lakes or find hidden caves, just take me from one location to the next like the first two games please.

 

Then there's the really lame bosses, not only is the squirt crab lame but he doesn't even move AND has almost zero animation- feels like you're fighting wallpaper. There are several other creatures that have poor (or non-existant) animation and when you combine that with the dull music it really creates a strong sense of boredom, and you feel like the people making it were bored too.

 

And overall there's just a general lack of memorable areas and level designs.

 

Still, there are some good levels here, and personally I don't mind Kiddy Kong.

 

If you cut out all the non-level gameplay/mechanics this game would be a lot more playable for me, and if it had music like the originals, this might even compare favorably with DKC1 (if I could ignore the lame bosses).

 

...but I agree with most of what you said in the OP, it's simply not up to par with the first two games.

 

P.S. DKC 1 and 2 aren't prequels to DKC 3 since they were made first. I know what you meant, but that's just not how the word works. Prequel is a later entry in the series set in an earlier time period. Sorry, but I'm exacting about words sometimes.


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#6 Nicholas Steel

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 02:35 AM

Note that Nintendo was having a spack attack with Rare around the time this game came out, I believe that's why a lot of iconic things are missing from the 3rd game (numerous animal buddies and Diddy & Donkey Kong). Nintendo owned those things, not Rare. This likely also explains the big graphical overhaul.

 

The problems between Rare and Nintendo grew and grew until Rare virtually left Nintendo after the N64 era.

 

Also, Diddy Kong > Dixie/Donkey/Kiddie Kong.


Edited by Nicholas Steel, 29 August 2017 - 02:42 AM.

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#7 Cukeman

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 06:34 AM

The returning robot you keep fighting is something I forgot to mention, it's another example of a boss with almost zero animation and is just pretty meh.


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#8 Air Luigi

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 07:31 AM

The only good boss in the entire series is King Zing, imo.Practically all the bosses in the series use the pattern wait, attack, wait, attack...

I think the reason because I found DKC1 at least decent, it's because bonus stages are real bonus stages rather than collect a ton stuff... The gimmicks are more subtle and there is a lack of vertical levels in DKC1... wich is a good thing because I never liked much many of the vertical levels in this series, they are usually lacking.

Edited by Air Luigi, 29 August 2017 - 07:32 AM.

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#9 Anthus

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 01:37 PM

 Falls? River? Twelve, at least. But yeah, too much water in this game.

 

Ah, yeah, the waterfall levels slipped my mind. They are really similar to the cliff/ mountain levels, but I'll amend the OP. I also kind of lumped the forest/ river areas together since from memory, they are palette swaps, and one just has water.

 

P.S. DKC 1 and 2 aren't prequels to DKC 3 since they were made first. I know what you meant, but that's just not how the word works. Prequel is a later entry in the series set in an earlier time period. Sorry, but I'm exacting about words sometimes.

 

No worries, I understand. You wouldn't believe how long it took to actually type up that post though. :P

 

The returning robot you keep fighting is something I forgot to mention, it's another example of a boss with almost zero animation and is just pretty meh.

 

Yeah, that was another thing. Most bosses in this game are just kind of like, large static images with seemingly random moves. The barrel monster in world 1 was kind of cool, and reminded me of Crocomire from Super Metroid, but most other bosses are either forgettable, or just not that great. To be entirely fair though, bosses have never really been the series' strong suit. I mean, DKC1 reuses two bosses twice, and DKC2 reuses one boss twice, and the assets of one boss from DKC1.


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#10 KingPridenia

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 01:44 PM

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I never had anything against DKC3 other than the Simon Says games. I was never the largest fan of the DKC series either to be honest. But I did like all of the games. Of course, that's based on not playing the games in a good 15 or so years, so who knows? I think the fact the Nintendo 64 came out the same year as DKC3 may have hurt it.


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#11 Cukeman

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 06:35 PM

To be entirely fair though, bosses have never really been the series' strong suit. I mean, DKC1 reuses two bosses twice, and DKC2 reuses one boss twice, and the assets of one boss from DKC1.

 

You're right, but I'm more forgiving towards easy bosses if they at least look interesting


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#12 Air Luigi

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 09:59 PM

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I never had anything against DKC3 other than the Simon Says games. I was never the largest fan of the DKC series either to be honest. But I did like all of the games. Of course, that's based on not playing the games in a good 15 or so years, so who knows? I think the fact the Nintendo 64 came out the same year as DKC3 may have hurt it.

 

At worst, they are good games, that's for sure, you can do much worse than DKC, they have more good things than bad things. But they aren't the masterpieces that I thought they were in the past :'(


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