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Let's Follow the Polls! (Retiring)


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#1 NewJourneysFire

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Posted 26 September 2018 - 05:25 AM

I feel that (relying too heavily on polls) I kinda destroyed the heart of what Enemy of the Month was. Instead of taking firm stances on any decision, I put my responsibilities on the community using polls which is probably a means to escape the fallback and consequences of making my own decisions. I posed poor decision making off as a democratic solution. It's easy to escape blame when I can say in my mind "you decided it".

 

What came out of that is a very confusing contest that lacks a lot of focus that nobody really even understands or want to participate in.

 

I don't want this Showcase to die, I really feel this has a lot of potential, and when I made it I even said it's something I personally wanted to stick around, I still believe this, but I feel this is going to be a decision that won't be mine to make. I've chosen to let you guys decide the fate of this through your votes, now I have to accept that you guys have also voted to not be in favor of this by your participation. I have to accept my failings as host of this contest and feel it is best for me to step down and take this as a learning lesson. It's time to pass the torch to somebody who won't rely too heavily on polls and maybe Make Enemy of the Month Great Again!

 

A new host can decide to continue this showcase the way it currently is, or bring EotM back to form, that would be entirely up to them and the staff of PureZC.

 

If I had to choose as the successor, I'd probably go with Dimentio. He was one of my biggest critics and have been warning months in advance that this would happen, he's been quite clear that my decisions were destroying this contest. There's a good chance that he has better ideas for this contest than I do, it's worth giving him that chance at least. 


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#2 ywkls

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Posted 26 September 2018 - 09:26 AM

I feel that (relying too heavily on polls) I kinda destroyed the heart of what Enemy of the Month was.

 

In my own opinion, I'm not sure if anyone knows what EOTM's heart was. 

New enemies? Yes. Crazy themes? No. 

As far as anything else go, lots of good ideas were generated by it.

As to whether those ideas will ever see the light of day outside EOTM, who knows?

 

 

What came out of that is a very confusing contest that lacks a lot of focus that nobody really even understands or want to participate in.

 

I don't want this Showcase to die, I really feel this has a lot of potential, and when I made it I even said it's something I personally wanted to stick around, I still believe this, but I feel this is going to be a decision that won't be mine to make. I've chosen to let you guys decide the fate of this through your votes, now I have to accept that you guys have also voted to not be in favor of this by your participation.

I've tried to participate every time in the showcase, but felt hampered at first by the off-beat themes.

Once I realized that wasn't necessary, I was able to submit things.

(Not to say Fire was odd, but I just didn't have anything appropriate; or so I thought.)

The ones since then may have been... somewhat hard for people to come up with anything.

Give them direction, and its easier to chart a course.

Say that you might do this, but you can also do anything you want... and you have indecision.

 

 

If I had to choose as the successor, I'd probably go with Dimentio. He was one of my biggest critics and have been warning months in advance that this would happen, he's been quite clear that my decisions were destroying this contest. There's a good chance that he has better ideas for this contest than I do, it's worth giving him that chance at least. 

 

I would have to say I've agreed that this would eventually happen.

I have no personal opinion as to who should take over.

Hopefully, we'll be able to keep this contest (or even EOTM) going.

It has been a gold mine of ideas for me.



#3 Avataro

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Posted 26 September 2018 - 09:30 AM

Oh damn :( I think you did a pretty good job with this, being determined and coming up with the good concept of the creation showcase. I can't say why it failed, but I guess people were too lazy, not interested, confused and/or didnt see the potential?

 

Personally I feel like I'm missing something to really get me invested in these types of events. Enemy of the Month included. I'm absolutely hype about quest contests and expos, but with the creation showcase I didn't feel much. I think the idea is great though and could be nice if more people participated.

 

IMO something could be done to make the whole thing cleaner and more coherent. The process of submitting should be more streamlined. Have some sort of formular you fill in with information and links. Why does it say in the rules a questfile is needed and why does it have to be unpassworded? Is this what led to klop submitting loose tiles as a quest file? Are the themes necessary? Aren't polls you can opt out of kinda strange? I admit, I feel it's a bit of a mess.


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#4 Orithan

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Posted 26 September 2018 - 04:51 PM

We are in a lull in activity. Pure has seen little activity for quite a while now. It has hurt pretty much every contest on the site, including Screenshot of the Week. I initially envisioned the "theme" being a guide would help the contest but it appeared to do nothing.

 

My main suggestions would be:

  • Make themes mandatory.

  • Themes need to be simple.

  • Quest Files should not be mandatory if you are submitting stuff that does not need a quest file to be demonstrated (eg. Loose tiles, music).

  • Any given theme should be delayed for a week tops. If it is to be delayed further, then go to a different theme.

  • The contest needs to be less poll-centric.



#5 Dimentio

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Posted 26 September 2018 - 05:23 PM

Okay, good. Seems like a good portion here are okay with my main plans for EotM/Showcase going forward, should I become the new host.



#6 Joelmacool

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Posted 27 September 2018 - 03:02 PM

It's a shame this is happening but if there is not as much activity on Pure right now, what's the purpose of keeping three contests? The wise thing to do here would be to keep SotW and MotM and hopefully, if activity spikes again, reintroduce this contest. I guess you could call it a hiatus, but I feel reviving this contest again wouldn't help and would probably face the same fate as before.



#7 Chris

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Posted 28 September 2018 - 02:46 AM

Isn't there a possibility to move this to discord? I am only in one ZC channel, but as far as I know there are plenty more. You could do subchannels (or whatever the stuff is called) for organisation/announcements, discussion and feedback?

I don't know how voting would work, but maybe make it really a showcase channel without set dates? Maybe with other subchannels for scripts and tiles and demos? And one similar to the streaming one that is used to advertise other zc-channels of projects?

You could leave an option here to send you stuff if people don't want to get active in discord and write a monthly review or so.
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#8 NewJourneysFire

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Posted 28 September 2018 - 06:42 AM

Just got a question, who here would like to see this current format try and survive? Or would you guys prefer going back to EotM, that information could be valuable for whoever PureZC staff decides to be the successor of this thing. I personally would still like to see the Showcase have a chance, even if a little less convoluted than what I had made here. I still see potential in the showcase, but I understand some people desire to have EotM back to form, which is why I made the joke "Let's Make EotM Great Again!"



#9 Anthus

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Posted 28 September 2018 - 10:25 AM

...


Voting could be done with emotes. I know that probably sounds silly but I've seen it done elsewhere. Each entry was its own message with a "thumbs up" reaction that others click on to vote. It's not prefect though and you'd have to trust people to vote honestly.

#10 Dimentio

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Posted 28 September 2018 - 12:30 PM

If I become the new host, I plan to turn this back into EotM. First off, because the Showcase was pretty much a mini-expo and the actual main event expo is on the horizon; and secondly, because I believe the showcase watered down the contest. A clear, concise focus on what the contest should be is essential for getting entries; having it be "idk submit whatever lol" can overwhelm people with deciding what they should submit.

Hell, we even had an Item of the Month and a Dungeon of the Month that were both decently successful that could always be brought back if people wanted it, and that just further proves my point; on their own, they were more successful than the showcase itself ever was. The showcase was comparing apples and oranges, and as a result this would mean that some content would potentially not get the attention they deserved, along with making the competitive aspect laughable. Someone could make some nice tiles, but be out-shined by a simple, bare-bones cutscene. Look at the Final Boss EotM; Evan's entry clearly out-shined all other entries simply because it was a quest filled with a crap-ton of resources and cool stuff, vs 2 bosses. Had Evan's entry just been his final boss, or any of the other bosses, then it could have been compared to either of the two other entries fairly. Had that not been the final EotM, it would have severely discouraged entries for the next EotM. 

The truth is, EotM was, at the same time, a competition. It's a motivation to submit something, or make something. Without the competitive aspect, it's sole purpose becomes, well, a showcase; only it's a showcase where they have to share the spotlight with other, potentially better or more eyecatching stuff, with a host who may or may not show off everything the entry can do. Why bother then, when you can just showcase it on your own terms elsewhere? And you can't really have a competition, when you are comparing apples and oranges. Or at least, not a fair one.


Edited by Dimentio, 28 September 2018 - 12:47 PM.

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#11 Jamian

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Posted 29 September 2018 - 08:08 AM

A clear, concise focus on what the contest should be is essential for getting entries; having it be "idk submit whatever lol" can overwhelm people with deciding what they should submit.

 

I agree, I remember that in some of the later EotM editions, people were allowed to just ignore the theme if they didn't like it... which I thought was a bad move. If you can submit whatever you like, why not just post it on the forum instead of submitting random things to a contest?

 

That being said, the current user activity on PureZC is pretty low, and thinking of new ideas for an enemy is more difficult than thinking of ideas for a screen, so it's understandable EoTM will never be as enduring as SotW/M. I don't see EoTM becoming very active again unless PureZC itself becomes more active. 


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#12 ywkls

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Posted 30 September 2018 - 12:01 AM

Looking back over EOTM, to me it always seemed that the crazier the theme; the less submissions it got.

Sometimes even "No Theme" or "Special Theme" months would have few entries.

I've never been able to pin down why this is, but with the ZC Creation Showcase we seem to be in a situation where nobody knows where to go or what to do.

To me, Dungeon of the Month had trouble due to the fact that most people don't want to make small dungeons.

And creating larger ones in a limited time is hard.

Whereas with Item of the Month, there's not a great deal of originality (something most of those who submit strive for) which can be obtained without scripting; which sort of limits the possible sources for material.

Puzzle of the Month has been suggested, but what makes a good puzzle is somewhat subjective to me.

For the future, we could keep the current format but instead of having a theme like "Fire" or "Ice" have "Item" , "Puzzle" , "Enemy" or whatever. Just a thought.



#13 Anthus

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Posted 30 September 2018 - 03:24 PM

To me, Dungeon of the Month had trouble due to the fact that most people don't want to make small dungeons.
And creating larger ones in a limited time is hard.


I don't want to jack the thread, but for DotM, you could submit older stuff you made, as long as it was just the dungeon, and an optional OW entrance screen. :P

You could submit a whole quest, and just set the dungeon's d-map as the start, give Link the items he would need, and cancel the exit/ sidewarp. But still, this is a lot to ask of people anyway.

Size was also subjective. People could submit whatever length, but there was the caveat that people might not play a super long, and difficult L9.

#14 Dimentio

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Posted 30 September 2018 - 04:20 PM

It's worth noting that both Dungeon of the Month and Item of the Month got more entries in their entire lifespan than the showcase did. Item of the Month and Dungeon of the Month, in both of their least successful months, got equal or more entries than the Showcase got in it's most successful month. Both contests most successful months got more entries than the Showcase did in it's entire lifespan.

It's worth noting this, because the Showcase allowed submitting dungeons and items. If it allowed for submitting more, why did it get less entries than more specialized contests? And "the activity is dying down" doesn't really apply, since both IotM and DotM ran while Pure had a Discord server and forum activity was lulling. 


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#15 NewJourneysFire

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Posted 01 October 2018 - 04:12 AM

Other contests have done better during PureZC's decline, so there is a chance that Dimentio is right. People seem to be eager to defend the showcase because either:

1: It all sounds good on paper.
2: Doesn't want to admit it was a bad idea.
3: Doesn't want to admit I was wrong.

4: May feel and don't want to admit they are wrong (because the contest's creation is poll based.)

 

I want to address 4 because 1 through 3 is not so complicated as 4. Let's face it, polls can be manipulated. I had no intention on manipulating the contest, and I don't feel I did, but I've been biased. I have handled them carelessly and may have written them all in a way that nudged and pushed this through regardless what anybody else truly believed. I had so much hope for what this contest is, and I couldn't see it for the terrible idea that it was.

 

Dimentio said that my questions should have been phrased in a manner of "What don't you want?" more than "What do you want?", because people are much more clear of what they don't want. 

 

Bottom line, the showcase by clear evidence is a bad idea, and it's my fault because of my own biases, and I should take full responsibility. EotM should probably have never been changed. Major reason I'm retiring is because I'm acknowledging I failed this thing. Other people should start seeing it for what it is. 




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