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Don'ts for ZQuest


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#1 klop422

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 10:46 AM

I was just playing through the first version of my quest (turns out it was a complete - if awful - quest. It's demo 4 of An Item Fantasy), and I noticed some really bad stuff done in there. Made me think about stuff that should never, or hardly ever, be done in the quest.

 

The two big errors in my quest that I can remember off the top of my head were:

- If you have a puzzle that takes a long time in a dungeon, don't make the player have to do it over and over again. (Making a dungeon not be one long line of puzzles and enemy rooms helps this). This was an

- Don't put peahats in a kill all enemies room. They take too long.

 

Anyone got anything else?


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#2 Deedee

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 12:37 PM

Just because you can place 10 enemies on a screen, doesn't mean you should. Less is more, and overworlds should have 5 at max per screen.

Keep block puzzles to a minimum. People don't like the tandard vanilla block puzzle enough to want to see it 10 times in a quest. 5 is plenty for a 9 dungeon quest, use other types of puzzles.

Don't use the ladder.

Don't use the raft.

Nerf the Roc's Feather.

Deathknights are endgame enemies, and terrible ones at that. Avoid.

Gold Tunic will destroy your quest. Don't. Blue Tunic is probably the most a quest needs if you balance your enemies right; red tunic in the final dungeon at most.

Master Sword you want to be careful with. Nerf it down to 6 damage instead of 8.

Fire Boomerang is trash. Avoid.


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#3 Moosh

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 12:42 PM

Don't use any of the following quest rules:

  • Flip Right-Facing Slash: While not being able to slash downwards while facing to the side is awkward, only being able to do it while facing one direction is even more so. This rule is gross. I'll take stab please.
  • Anything less than the fastest scroll speed: Don't waste my time, thanks.
  • No Screen Scrolling: Okay there is such a thing as too far, though. :P Without any scrolling players lose out on that split second to adapt when entering a new screen.
  • Invincible Link Flickers: If you're a streamer or your computer is just in a bad mood, this rule renders quests nigh unplayable. Thanks framerate fairy!
  • Smart Screen Scrolling: Encourages lazy design, can lead to bugs with intended layouts that should work but don't because the rule thinks you're walking into a softlock.
  • Enemies Always Return: This is best done on a screen to screen basis when it's needed.
  • Skip Continue Screen: Because of quest load times + lost progress being especially unfun in the type of games ZC is typically made for. Take extra care what kind of game experience you're designing if you choose to try this. Stay away from puzzles if you are using it. 

Turns out some of the most common design mistakes are the ones the editor actively encourages by giving designers bad options. Huh...


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#4 Architect Abdiel

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 01:27 PM

A lot of this is also knowing what kind of quest you want to make.

If you want to make something more challenging, more enemies is okay if you're going for a certain kind of quest.

However, for those just wanting to make an average difficulty, you don't need many enemies per screen. I keep mine at 5 or less on the overworld and in dungeons. And the 5 screens are pretty rare. Most are 3, strategically placed.

Be mindful of the raft's and ladder's fault. I think the ladder is fine. But limit it mostly to crossing little gaps. Making single tile ladder puzzles over water is really annoying when you get stuck for instance.

The raft is better if you have solid water. Or at least solid around the docks. If you don't just be warned that you will have some difficulties.

The most important thing... test your creations. Test them yourself, test them again, test them 20 times. Have other people test it.
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#5 klop422

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 01:44 PM

Something I sometimes do/did was add unkillable enemies to puzzle screens. I'd say it's fine, as long as it's not two boulders and a rock and a really annoying block puzzle.

 

Also, something I try to do is make the number of effective (non-filler) rooms to get somewhere about the same no matter where you're going. And add shortcuts.


Edited by klop422, 06 May 2018 - 01:47 PM.


#6 Chris

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 03:06 PM

I like lots of block puzzles as long as they are good.

[Edit] to add something, rooms flooded with enemies without a need to kill them.

Edited by Chris, 06 May 2018 - 03:08 PM.

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#7 klop422

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 06:43 PM

I think I have too many block puzzles in my quest...

To be fair, they're not as bad as the ones in my first version. And, as blocks end up in block holes in my puzzles, I can distinguish between blocks which other blocks can go over and ones over which they can't. Makes the puzzles use a little more thought.

Also, I never put more than two in one dungeon (if that).

 

Also, the only place I put Death Knights in my quest is a room you can't access. The room is about half the size it should be, has 10 Death Knights, and gives you a rupee for killing them all. Stupid, but the entrance is inaccessible without cheats, so you're probably cheating anyway.

 

Also, if you're using the raft (I'd say you can use it, but be careful), make the raft paths as short as possible. I know probably everyone knows this, but younger amateur me didn't know.


Edited by klop422, 06 May 2018 - 06:45 PM.

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#8 Orithan

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 09:20 PM

My one recommendation:

Don't disregard a concept or design choice only because people criticise it: There are no hard and fast rules to game design and seeing some of the comments in this thread that come off as "Don't use quest rule or concept x, period" (particularly the ones that are heavily grounded in personal taste over presenting arguments for objectivity) in made me wince. However, if the design elements or concepts you wish to put to use are controversial (eg. using the Skip Continue Screen quest rule), make sure you know what you are doing and carefully design your content around its inclusion so it works out well in the end.


Edited by Orithan, 06 May 2018 - 09:21 PM.

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#9 Shane

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 04:57 AM

I disagree with a good number of the "don'ts" here. The only "don't" I have to offer is don't disregard how players will play your stuff as they don't have the same insight or perspective as the creator and vice versa. Don't leave your quest untested is another major don't as there might be bugs, terrible item combinations, tedium, etc. left unchecked if you don't test to see how your quest works.


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#10 NoeL

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 05:27 AM

No open corners. :P

 

Also, what's with all the raft hate?


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#11 Eddy

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 06:32 AM

Flipped slash is the bane of my existence, don't do that to me please :(

 

But yeah, I agree with most of the don'ts here, however I definitely want to reiterate Shane's testing one. Just please don't leave stuff untested, a lot of the time it will probably end up making your quest completely broken or just unplayable, and that's not really a good thing when releasing your stuff lol.

 

Also interesting one with the raft and ladders. I'd say don't use them if you have diagonal movement enabled, especially the ladder, since they bug out pretty quickly. Otherwise, with traditional 4-way movement they work pretty well. As for rafts, I'd say don't use them if you aren't going to make it easy to activate them. Like you can have a raft dock, but have some combos next to it or whatever so activating the raft is very easy to do (e.g. what I did in AR3 would be a good example I feel).


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#12 Octorockoncrack

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 07:47 AM

C'mon guys, we should have mentioned Purple Trees from the very beginning.

 

Priorities, people :P


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#13 Deedee

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 08:54 AM

PRAISE BE THE HOLY PURPLE TREE


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#14 Anthus

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 02:55 PM

Don't try so hard to make the next breakthrough quest. Burnout is a real thing (not the racing series, like, actual burnout) and if you aren't careful, you'll find yourself stressing over the dumbest little details. 

 

Don't rush into an idea. I know everyone's creative thought process is different, but for me it's important to make sure an idea will actually be fun, and can have multiple uses. Make a few test screens to try it out. Maybe those time based block puzzles on ice with deathknights sounded better in your head, and you wouldn't want to make an entire dungeon use an idea that sucks.

 

That's all I got.


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#15 Deedee

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 03:46 PM

Oh yeah, Raft and Ladder are satan in 8 way movement. Avoid using them.




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