27 replies to this topic

[Koh]

Do you feel that they've changed over the years, and then especially a lot more so with the betas of 2.5? Be completely honest here, how many of you actually expect one or more of the following in quests these days:

• Super Detailed Tileset (DOR seems to be the default for this.)
• Default-Engine tweaking scripts. Ones that will either "wow" the players, or do something that just the base engine of ZC can't do alone.
• Custom Bosses, either by scripting or a ton of combo cycling.
• A non-default subscreen.
• An in-depth, non-save-the-girl story.
• Large Quest, whether it be by one huge, multi-dmap spanning overworld, or one that features multiple default-sized overworlds.
• More than the 9 standard dungeons.
• Other.

[Mero]

I don't have any standards when it comes to quest. I simply want to play quest that are fun and challenging.

[Dawnlight]

Koh, there are NO standards in quest-making. Simply build a quest, have fun developing it, get it tested, and release it. It doesn't get simpler than that. Having that sort of idea is the #1 mistake newbies make and makes ZQuesting a necessity rather than fun.

In response to your list:

[*]Super Detailed Tileset (DOR seems to be the default for this.)
This is the #2 mistake newbies make in ZQuesting. Detail does not equal quality. Newbies think making their quest using DoR or any other detailed tileset would automatically make their quest popular.
[*]Default-Engine tweaking scripts. Ones that will either "wow" the players, or do something that just the base engine of ZC can't do alone.
I would say scripts are necessary for conveinence such as the signpost script, the shop script, any type of warping scripts, etc.
[*]Custom Bosses, either by scripting or a ton of combo cycling.
I bet you that this trend started ever since Hero of Dreams was released.
[*]A non-default subscreen.
Standard 2.5 feature. Not much of a standard.
[*]An in-depth, non-save-the-girl story.
It all depends on the questmaker's preference. Some would want it, some would not. It's not a standard at all.
[*]Large Quest, whether it be by one huge, multi-dmap spanning overworld, or one that features multiple default-sized overworlds.
I believe that when Large quests were released to the public, it intimidated some people. Some people think "Aww man! Now I need to make my quest big in order for it to be just as good as this large quest." You could argue that this alone could be one of the reasons why there's a decline in completed quest projects.
[*]More than the 9 standard dungeons.
Not a standard. It's all about quality not quantity. I say add extra dungeons "if you need to."

Edited by Dawnlight, 17 May 2012 - 08:22 AM.

[Koh]

@Dawnlight: I know there aren't any in-stone driven quest standards; what I mean are implied quest standards. Things people come to expect when either searching for, or supporting custom quests these days. Not everyone expects something from this list, these just seem to be the most popular I've seen lately . And I'm not saying these are bad standards per se, it's more or less to see exactly what features people are looking for in player-made quests.

P.S. It looks like Avan's waving at your post over there XD.

[Dawnlight]

What ever happned to ZQuesting being fun? Lately some people are blinded by this myth of trying to be the most popular member and making the most popular quest of the PZC community. This is the #3 mistake newbies make when developing quests: Desperately seeking community attention.

I said this numerous times before: Don't seek out publicity, have publicity come to you.

Edited by Dawnlight, 17 May 2012 - 08:48 AM.

[Koh]

What ever happned to ZQuesting being fun? Lately some people are blinded by this myth of trying to be the most popular member and making the most popular quest of the PZC community. This is the #3 mistake newbies make when developing quests: Desperately seeking community attention.

I said this numerous times before: Don't seek out publicity, have publicity come to you.

Oh don't worry, I don't plan on making a ZC Quest. Think of it as an exposition for those that are . That way if they know people really want to see their creativity soar with custom bosses, for example, they can plan accordingly.

[Moosh]

What ever happned to ZQuesting being fun? Lately some people are blinded by this myth of trying to be the most popular member and making the most popular quest of the PZC community. This is the #3 mistake newbies make when developing quests: Desperately seeking community attention.

I said this numerous times before: Don't seek out publicity, have publicity come to you.

What ever happned to ZQuesting being fun?

fun

For me at least, ZQuest has never been "fun". It's work. It takes effort. I suppose it's fun to see the product that comes out of it, but I'd never call the design process itself fun. That's why I strive to make the best product I can possibly make so that none of my effort goes to waste. I suppose I expect this of other designers as well. As for gaining community attention, it certainly does help provide motivation when people show interest in your work...I can't imagine making quests if nobody wants to play them.

[aaa2]

Expectations well i would never play a game with Classic tileset but that is only preference and i bet there is a lot of people that enjoy the classic tileset. For length i have to say actually most of the games are too long for me. I cannot keep my attention on something this long knowing that instead i should actually do something more useful like finally read some parts of the books from L.D. Landau and E.M. Lifschitz for example on Quantum Electrodynamics(book numer 4 in a line of 10 books where i have all). People should try to release shorter games that can appeal to me.

Edited by aaa2, 17 May 2012 - 10:06 AM.

[Jenny]

Expectations well i would never play a game with Classic tileset but that is only preference and i bet there is a lot of people that enjoy the classic tileset. For length i have to say actually most of the games are too long for me. I cannot keep my attention on something this long knowing that instead i should actually do something more useful like finally read some parts of the books from L.D. Landau and E.M. Lifschitz for example on Quantum Electrodynamics(book numer 4 in a line of 10 books where i have all). People should try to release shorter games that can appeal to me.

It seems as if you are pretty close minded. First of all, why not play a classic quest? Is it because of it's graphics? If so, I don't really find that right, because even the greatest quest doesn't neccesarily NEED good graphics. Second of all, I don't think people are going to release very short quests. I would rather have a quest last a while than to be able to beat it in a couple of hours. (although some of them have trouble keeping my attention, too)

[aaa2]

It seems as if you are pretty close minded. First of all, why not play a classic quest? Is it because of it's graphics? If so, I don't really find that right, because even the greatest quest doesn't neccesarily NEED good graphics. Second of all, I don't think people are going to release very short quests. I would rather have a quest last a while than to be able to beat it in a couple of hours. (although some of them have trouble keeping my attention, too)

Let us assume that the following conditions are true for a person:
1. There is a lot of games with classic tileset and a lot of games with other tilesets.
2. The person prefers any tileset above classic tileset
3. There is enough games with non-classic tileset that are good enough
4. The person has limited available time

Wouldnt it be stupid for such a person to play games with classic tileset if those assumptions are true? Since those assumptions are all true for me it would thus be stupid for me to play games with classic tileset.

Beyond that i have to say that your logics is flawed if you try to pass your own preference as an argument for why people will not release short games.(your agument goes: you think people will not release short games reason: you would rather have a quest a while than beat it in a couple of hours). What i mean to say please seperate your opinion from an unrelated statement you make without proof more clearly or else people will misinterpret it on purpose like i did in the brackets. I know that actually those were unrelated things(at least i hope since otherwise your logics would be severely flawed).

In any case i do not know whether or not you realized that my last sentence in my last comment was partly meant as a joke, a wishful joke.

[Hergiswi]

I don't think standards have changed, I just think capabilities have changed. I'll personally still play the original Zelda until I die, but it's also really cool that we can go above and beyond that if we feel the need to.

[Jared]

Kind of going off of what Dawnlight said, I LOVE writing my stories, and drawing maps for my places. It's just ZQuesting that can get tedious. So, I do love building my quests!

My standards for most is that the tileset has to look okay. Not much.
An in-depth story is what really pulls me in, though. I like feeling connected to whatever I'm doing. And because of this, quests are bound to be long. But that's not a necessity. for me.

[CastChaos]

There ALWAYS were standards for quests and they always defined how quests were STARTED. I just know it, I was not only playing too many quests for my own good, but I was closely observing the development of those that were announced before release.

In 2006, a simple 8 dungeons 2.10 quest was more than fine, people didn't expect more than newbies and when Tlseward kept releasing them in 2007, nobody was against it, even more, they cherished him.

It was at the end of 2006, beginning of 2007 that suddenly people started to crave story and scenes... That's why I moved from the "slightly more than just a 8 dungeons quest" that Shadow Wars II, Terror of the Misunderstood Tower and LttP: the Golden Land would have been to start Freeze to the Past that eventually was re-started as Ballad of a Bloodline... it completely fit the standards of that time, but the next set of newbies (the ones registering the same time like The Satellite and Taco_Chopper unless I'm messing up timelines just like when I thought Jared was in ZC only for a few months) started to shun anything that was possible with not the most recent version, always immediately downloading the newest beta.
This was already enough to move away from the standard that BB was beginning to be made for (at least the standards did move already in 2007's very end, FML; that's why you shouldn't make a quest that lasts more than a year to make).

Then came the next set of newbies (that I mark with Russ and Zebrastallion, again if I didn't mess up timelines) who already joined in this changed environment and with the lead of some already existing members, there suddenly started to be graphics standards with these new members continiously mistaking the words "graphics" and "design", they only cared the looks of invidual screens (and maybe MAYBE maps). So yes, the nowadays ZC community's primary attribute appeared back then in 2008 already.
They say people started to get bored of ZC because 2.10 was age old already and there wasn't a new stable version. Maybe they were right. Developers just adding and adding more and more buggy features to make unusable ZC5.2, 12.6.7, 268248223.38272.122.0.0.0.324 instead of releasing stable versions step by step (ZC2.13, 2.20, 2.25, 2.4...) was really a nail in the coffin. I remember Joe123 saying from 2007 till at least some 2009-2010 that "stable 2.5 is just weeks away" and he said that each week and you believed him each week (is it a coincidence that a finally usable RC2 was made when he wasn't around anymore? Timeline check again, please.).

Then when scripting was added, it became a standard to use it, probably that's why now so many LoZ tileset quests, most of which are full of scripts, I suspect... Screen looks are even lessened in importance compared to script usage, and all is more colourful now, but scripts occupy till big part of the apple.

And we are here today now. There are two serious standards: show something breathtaking AND use many scripts. That's why there are no simple LoZ quests released anymore, if you look in the database, even "first quests" have such amazing twists like... the quests in. And graphical grandiose like Zelda's Butt. It's kinda scrary... it's great that there are great quests recently released, but EXPECTING it is major brownness. Like, I almost recently made a LoZ tileset quest with not simple LoZ screen design then one of the screens was taken out, exactly the kinda only simple NES LoZ-ish screen then the whole quest trolled over it, while actually it shouldn't have been a problem if really all screens were like that.
I... I... I was thinking of throwing a very simple 2.10 LoZ quest together, a few screens per day, because I have time at least for that besides work... but I already subsconciously threw away the idea with actual fear because, BECAUSE I knew nobody would care it, nobody wants to spend a leisure 30 minutes or 2 hours with a simple fun quest...

Of course this isn't simply because the delay of stable ZC development and the sudden rush of new features and all...
There are different people now...
One effect is ghettoing. Like when estate cost in a city district lowers, making people of lower standing move there, which makes higher people move away, which makes even lower people move in and so on till a criminal territory is created (or opposite, the district becomes richer and richer and then it gets known as the district of movie stars and such).
Same in ZC. The serious, fun-craving, not screen-nazy, not script-frenzy people left, probably partially aging out from here, getting kids... so the ones who played the NES/SNES/GB Zeldas not as retro (or "left behind by siblings") rather as recent games were left. The percentage of "my first console was N64, your quest sux because it doesn't look like OoT" people grew, and it is maybe not only my imagination that this further scared away serious people, which further drawn kids here and so on (ghettoing).
I wish I was here even earlier (like, 2000/2002 already) to see better. As far as I heard, then it was enough to make a one-day-to-make quest to have people do standing ovation. And so eventually, Revenge, MMDWRDC and DFW's quests hit jackpot without setting standard.

I hate this so much. So much more, bigger, better quests could have been released with people not scaring and demotivating each other. I wanted a stable ZC3.0 with an exact LttP remake being the default 1st quest, but it being OK to make simple LoZ quests, too. I had so many hopes back in 2006/2007... Was there a good choice at all?
I'm always having the second thought that this all is different, but it's a fact that people are making up standards and tell off quests based on them. That's the only thing I'm 100% sure of.

I'm always having the second thought that this all is different, but it's a fact that people are making up standards and tell off quests based on them. That's the only thing I'm 100% sure of.

(I'm really interested if my timeline stereotype is collect and people can be grouped in the same way I do... maybe it would worth a separate thread altogether...)

[Dawnlight]

CastChaos, in response to what you just said (assuming you strongly disagreed with my statement), I believe what you just listed in regards to 2.5 and each and every new feature it contains are examples of "potentials." I don't consider those as new "standards." While ZC 2.5 has scripting capabilities, it is not a necessity to use it. Just because 2.5 has all of these neat features, that doesn't mean that you are required to use EVERY SINGLE feature this engine has.

You seem to talk about standards caused by trends or what everyone else is doing. I personally think the ZC community will never evolve if they keep following this type of behavior. This is equivalent to trying to fit into a certain social group. You have no individuality and have to follow all of these fads.

/M/ made an excellent topic quite a while ago regarding how users are "misinformed" from following all of these "standards" started by our community.

Topic: http://www.purezc.co...o...ic=51271

So basically, you're saying we should continue to be "sheep" and follow what THEY want rather than following that YOU as an individual want.

[Shane]

Using super quality tilesets does not make your game instant epic. As truthful as it seems, graphics only matter if you use it properly. And it seems like graphics overshadow, screen design, story, gameplay and music nowadays.