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#61 Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder

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Posted 23 March 2011 - 12:00 AM

QUOTE(DarkFlameWolf @ Mar 23 2011, 05:46 AM) View Post
My quests = HCPs.
Plain and simple. I like using them, I'll continue to use them. End of story. You all make valid points, but this is how I create quests.Why change something I'm already good at?
It's not about changing something you're already good at... it's about trying new things, and getting good at other things too.

If everyone always stuck to the same formula when making games, we wouldn't get any new, unique and original creations, and if that were to happen, we'd all be playing the same games over and over and over again.

Basically, without new innovative ideas, we're not getting anywhere. Imagine how it would have been like if everyone thought back in the 1940's that "Well, what we have now works, so why should we bother trying to come up with new technology?". It is true that one doesn't necessarily have to "fix what's not broken", but sticking to the same exact formula really doesn't get you anywhere icon_shrug.gif


#62 Orithan

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Posted 23 March 2011 - 01:58 AM

Yeah, we can get creative with HCPs. 90 (which is double of what TP had) of them sounds unique. Like what I said before, 90 little rewards can really get you going, offsetting any problems with them as they account for HALF of your total life capacity in Diamond Quest (then again, I've heard BoaB gives so many HCPs that they could amount to 36 HCs if 2.10 let the player go up to that many).

The sheer number of HCPs will help you play the game your way, giving you the decision wherether to rush straight through or nab the full 36 HC limit by getting all 90 HCs, and I plan there to have no minium number of hearts to beat it.



#63 Radien

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Posted 23 March 2011 - 02:38 AM

QUOTE(DarkFlameWolf @ Mar 22 2011, 09:46 PM) View Post
My quests = HCPs.
Plain and simple. I like using them, I'll continue to use them. End of story. You all make valid points, but this is how I create quests.Why change something I'm already good at?

I'm afraid your quests... well... haven't been able to hold me for very long.


QUOTE(Orin XD @ Mar 22 2011, 11:58 PM) View Post
Yeah, we can get creative with HCPs. 90 (which is double of what TP had) of them sounds unique. Like what I said before, 90 little rewards can really get you going, offsetting any problems with them as they account for HALF of your total life capacity in Diamond Quest (then again, I've heard BoaB gives so many HCPs that they could amount to 36 HCs if 2.10 let the player go up to that many).

The sheer number of HCPs will help you play the game your way, giving you the decision wherether to rush straight through or nab the full 36 HC limit by getting all 90 HCs, and I plan there to have no minium number of hearts to beat it.

Since I just ate some pie, I'd like to use pie as an analogy here.

Your roommate bakes a pie for a party you and he are having. You invited 6 guests to the party -- 8 people total. One pie is enough for 8 people. However, you later decide to invite more guests, and you end up with 32 people.

Your roommate says "no problem! I'll just cut the pie into 32 pieces. That's FOUR TIMES as much pie!" 32's a big number... but if you take his suggestion, you're still not bringing any more pie than before.

That's what I feel it's like to offer tons of Heart Pieces instead of Heart Containers when you "need more rewards."

#64 DarkFlameWolf

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 12:57 PM

well my quests aren't for everyone Radien and I'm okay with that. Nobody has a quest for everyone. Now go finish your damn quest so I can get bored easily of it. LOL icon_wink.gif

Edited by DarkFlameWolf, 08 May 2011 - 01:26 PM.


#65 Alestance

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 01:48 PM

Just to follow up on what was said earlier, there is no bug preventing the use of quarter heart increases in 2.5.

Infact I just tested this. I picked up the Heart Container, and instantly got the quarter heart(i edited the heart container to only add 4 instead of 16, since a full heart is 16 points).

So if you absolutely must use HCPs, I have to side with Radien: give the quarter of health immediately.

EDIT: Er wait, no it didnt... BUT writing a script to attribute to the HCP to do it IS FREAKING SIMPLE. I could even write one.

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 02:05 PM

There is no doubt about the fact that you are good at making solid gameplay, DarkFlameWolf. I have played every one of your quests and they tended to not be boring, but it would have been nice if you came up with some original storylines. Gameplay is very important, but so is story and environment. At least Lost Isle had a unique story and look to it. The point is, don't just be a good builder, be a good artist and storyteller as well. Hope all goes well with Amulet of Fate.

As with heart container pieces, I would find it tricky to keep track of them, and therefore might just stick with full heart containers should I build a quest. With 2.5, it is possible to create valuable custom items to give out by completing side-quests and even side-dungeons. Note the extra dungeons in Hidden Duality and Isle of the Winds for giving out uber items. Another reward to give out could be... exploration itself. I have played Myst and Riven, and in those games exploration and story are the only real rewards. So why not make areas and even dungeons for the sake of story and exploration? Just remember to make them very unique and memorable. After all, I am only interested in Zelda Classic quests that are fun, unique, and beautiful.

#67 Radien

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 06:02 PM

QUOTE(DarkFlameWolf @ May 8 2011, 10:57 AM) View Post
well my quests aren't for everyone Radien and I'm okay with that. Nobody has a quest for everyone. Now go finish your damn quest so I can get bored easily of it. LOL icon_wink.gif

I'm sorry that Dance of Remembrance has been so delayed. I was kinda busy last year... you know, having a stroke, relearning how to walk. That sort of stuff.

In the meantime... although most of my accomplishments have been tilesets, I have put out a quest, "LoZ: Master Quest," and a remake of it. Nobody talks about Master Quest because it's made with BS, but I did design 9 completely new dungeons for it, which took considerably longer than a day. It may not be as flashy, but it required a lot of gameplay design.

QUOTE(Alestance @ May 8 2011, 11:48 AM) View Post
Just to follow up on what was said earlier, there is no bug preventing the use of quarter heart increases in 2.5.

Infact I just tested this. I picked up the Heart Container, and instantly got the quarter heart(i edited the heart container to only add 4 instead of 16, since a full heart is 16 points).

So if you absolutely must use HCPs, I have to side with Radien: give the quarter of health immediately.

EDIT: Er wait, no it didnt... BUT writing a script to attribute to the HCP to do it IS FREAKING SIMPLE. I could even write one.

I'm happy to hear that it is possible. I'd be particularly glad to hear of someone who wants to use it in a quest. I won't request the script since I wouldn't use it, but I definitely hope someone else does. icon_thumbsup.gif

QUOTE(Nolornbon @ May 8 2011, 12:05 PM) View Post
Another reward to give out could be... exploration itself.

Had to quote this because I really think you're on to something. Video games with items don't just reward us and leave us to replay the old levels... exploration really IS part of the reward. You get a new item, and it allows you to access a new area, and you get to enjoy finding out what is in that new area. You don't just sit on the couch with your newfound hookshot and twiddle your thumbs, right? icon_wink.gif

Put another way, games present us with one challenge, and then when we solve it, they reward us with larger and larger challenges. This is a technique which has actually been employed in teaching. I once read an article about how video games actually use the perfect teaching model.


Anyway, Nolornbon, I applaud your approach to games as you described in the rest of your post. icon_smile.gif Welcome to PureZC!

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 07:46 PM

I am grateful for the welcome. I feel that my thoughts and ideas could make a lasting impression. Too bad about the stroke, though. Know well what you use for it before you use it. Very important to do so.

While playing a gameboy-style quest, I felt the dissapointment of getting a heart piece instead of something better (like a blue ring, since red wizzrobes do four hearts of damage.) So I can see how getting heart pieces can be sad. It is also sad that most overworlds and dungeons in Zelda Classic quests look very much the same and therefore are not really worth much exploration. Even making custom palletes, provided they are well made, can give a sense of uniqueness. This is very important if you want exploration to be a major reward in place of heart pieces. Make a good and original story, and learning more about it can also be a reward. It should be known that when choosing a quest to play I am looking for one that has places worth exploring. A good, original story is also what I look for. Too many times have I found quests not worthy. I do also consider gameplay when choosing a quest.

As I have stated in my last post, have exploration and story be prominant rewards instead of heart pieces.

#69 hinsburg

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 11:58 PM

Why not just have a gold skulltula or secret seashell system? Rather than having a lot of tiny rewards, make the collection into one big sidequest for a super duper uber reward? Or several good rewards every ten or so.

#70 Anthus

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 02:10 PM

I see your point, but kinda disagree. I feel that what you said about rewards in mini dungeons being items is a good point, but in most cases, and in most (earlier) Zelda games with HCPs they were found largely in the overworld. MM was the first game to use them mostly for side quests and mini games. Wind Waker followed suit, but TP introduced a large number of HCPs back into the overworld.

I think using HCPs in the OW is a good idea because they generally require either an item, or some short puzzle to get. This is good because it will encourage players to explore as much of the overworld as possible, and it adds a sense of accomplishment to exploring. I also feel that hunting HCPs is a good time killer if you are just bored, or something. I agree about maybe, being disappointed if you go through a tough mini dungeon only to get an HCP, but most quest authors use them mostly in overworlds. My quest does not use HCPs because it is classic styled, and I would much rather reward the players with an item for exploring, given the size of the quest. HCPs simply aren't needed in some quests, yes, but to completely say they should never be used is a bit out there. icon_wink.gif

All in all, I think HCPs add another element, and just more stuff to find. I guess it also comes down to your personal tastes. HCPs are kind of an intermediate reward in most cases (Better than rupees, but not as cool as a new item/ upgrade). Plus, you can also change the number of HCPs required to amass a full container. I considered the idea of using two HCPs. That way every other one you find is a reward in itself. Maybe the official franchise should take a tip from ZC, and add more items, instead of pointless rupees (that, ahem, you can't even grab half the time in some games.. ahem) and HCPs. I felt that five per one container was kind of a lot, but I love exploring the overworld in TP, which is pretty much the only reason I like the game.

#71 Orithan

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 01:20 AM

I'm mostly with Anthus on this; wherether there are only 20 HCPs and four to a container (most ZC quests) or there are a massive 90 and five to a container (Diamond Quest icon_razz.gif), what counts is how fun it is collecting them. I could stuff 90 sidequests and each one giving out a single HCP as the award in Diamond Quest; that would get boring fast and I obviously don't want that. I also could spread them out in the overworlds, dungeons with only one or two given away total in the more minor sidequests (and the Lone Wolf's shops don't count as sidequests); that's much more entertaining, abliet a bit repetitive. All of the HCPs amount to 18 HCs, which would be an sinifigant help in the end, just like how EVs work on a pokemon.

#72 Radien

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 06:14 AM

QUOTE(Nolornbon @ May 9 2011, 05:46 PM) View Post

I am grateful for the welcome. I feel that my thoughts and ideas could make a lasting impression. Too bad about the stroke, though. Know well what you use for it before you use it. Very important to do so.

While playing a gameboy-style quest, I felt the dissapointment of getting a heart piece instead of something better (like a blue ring, since red wizzrobes do four hearts of damage.) So I can see how getting heart pieces can be sad. It is also sad that most overworlds and dungeons in Zelda Classic quests look very much the same and therefore are not really worth much exploration. Even making custom palletes, provided they are well made, can give a sense of uniqueness. This is very important if you want exploration to be a major reward in place of heart pieces. Make a good and original story, and learning more about it can also be a reward. It should be known that when choosing a quest to play I am looking for one that has places worth exploring. A good, original story is also what I look for. Too many times have I found quests not worthy. I do also consider gameplay when choosing a quest.

As I have stated in my last post, have exploration and story be prominant rewards instead of heart pieces.

Sorry I sprung the stroke on the conversation there. It's pretty common knowledge around here; I was just using it to be sarcastic. Basically, I want to finish my big quest, but I have had much bigger things to worry about.

Side note: I have heard that the fact that red Wizzrobes were supposed to do 2 hearts of damage, and Zelda 1 had a bug/error that swapped its damage with blue Wizzrobes. I think that'd be a worthwhile change for the enemy editor, for people who use ZC 2.5.


...Anyway, I agree with most of what you say. Not only do overworld need to be interesting, there should be a little story behind them, so you care about what is where.

One thing I differ on: although story is a good reward (if you do it half as well as Majora's Mask did), but I think it's best to give exploration along with OTHER rewards. If your only reward is access to the next area, then the item might not do anything fun. This is why I'm not fond of the Bracelet item and never want it to be a dungeon item in ZC quests.

Anyway, mention of Majora's Mask leads into the next reply...


Anthus:

What you speak of is, in a sense, HCPs used "properly." However, even used "properly," as rewards for extremely tiny tasks and incremental exploration, I don't like them because of the lopsided "collect 4" idea. For a reward that small, there needs to be some immediacy. Items that are broken into pieces should come in other flavors, like the multi-part Big Key in the Goron Mines in Twilight Princess.

And for the record, I didn't mind Majora's Mask's way of doing things, but it wasn't because HCPs worked better in that game. It was because along with each HCP, you got a much more valuable reward: story and resolution. If you didn't do most of the sidequests, you didn't get nearly as satisfying an ending. If all Zelda games did it as well as MM, I would be quite satisfied.

Again, I would like to point out that your argument for using HCPs to encourage exploration is entirely about the journey and not the reward itself. You could take a Zelda game, keep every single quest the same, and change all the HCP rewards, and the enjoyability of the searching would be exactly the same. But if you disregard all that, the value of the REWARD can be measured on its own. If the reward is useless, and your interest in seeing every part of the game world ever falters, then you no longer have a motive to keep exploring.

And as I swear I've said before in this thread, I agree that 9 out of 10 Zelda games have a broken rupee economy. But that's a slightly different issue, though still part of the overarching "worthless reward" problem.


Hinsburg:

I really enjoy token collection, and I think it'd be great in a ZC quest. Something to that effect may be possible, but the problem is that ZQuest doesn't have a built-in feature for doing it, so people have to be really creative in order to implement something like that.

Anyway, great suggestion for action/adventure games in general, but problematic in ZC. icon_unsettled.gif

#73 Nathaniel

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 01:57 PM

Tokens, seashells, ore chunks...

All the reason for the usefulness of alternative or custom currency types. Acts like rupees, but one is not interchangeable with the other, as long as you don't have an exchange shop for such a thing.

If 100 of such special things gives some sort of special reward, or even if it doesn't besides the intrinsic benefit of it, then it could be implemented as a much slower version of collecting rupees, and using them could be set up in the form of a shop.

So HCPs are good for those who want to use them, but it's always great to have alternative collectibles. And I think a second currency is one way to achieve that.

#74 Radien

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 01:51 AM

"Second currency"... well, I call them tokens, but whatever you call them, we are thinking of the same thing. I think the best thing about the idea is that you would get to choose what you need most. Choice is one of the most valuable rewards in a game. Getting to choose exactly what you need is worth several times as much as an arbitrary reward.

I have a way in mind for offering collectibles in DoR, but it is rather roundabout and will require some crafty techniques. Yes, it'd be nice to have a second currency as a standard feature. Hopefully the ZC 2.5 release candidate will be chosen soon and they'll be able to think about a few new additions after that.

#75 King Harkinian

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 03:40 PM

Majora's mask, ugghh.... As much as I HATE this game, along with Zelda 2, I do think they managed HCPs well, but HCPs are still the biggest letdown in a long game like TP. In wind waker, I was so annoyed after the cave of ordeals was only a heart pieces. But in shorter games like minish cap, or the oracle games, they are decent. HCPs don't work in larger zelda games. Stick with heart containers, like the first game, and if nintendo can't live without the 16 heart total, and them here and there, JUST DON'T PUT THEM AT THE END AT OF A FREAKING SIDE QUEST!!! That's what ruins them for me.

As for second currency, nice idea, but the only real game that did it was OoS, but they didn't use it well, and I had a bunch left over at the end of the game. I'd like to see that idea reused, along with the spinner, but better.



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