74 replies to this topic

[Yapollo]

There is always the clever utilization of giving the mini-boss a heart piece, and hiding three other pieces in the same dungeon. Couple that with the heart container from a boss, and you have two heart containers per dungeon (which is a gem for the smallesque* quests).

Still the point stands, we have too many goodies, do not hide fifteen million heart pieces in difficult areas - it is really annoying (and do not get me going on rupees).

* - This is not a real word

[SpacemanDan]

Sure, you can find them all and say "I found all the hearts," but wouldn't you rather get something USEFUL and FUN for your troubles, in addition to bragging rights?...

For instance, how about a weapon that will kick Ganon's butt from here to Jupiter?...

Funny you mention this; I'm doing just that in my own quest. That is, if you get every item, HC and clear the game 100%, you'll unlock the final challenge of the game: a super powered boss intended to be near impossible. Beating this boss doesn't yield any sort of item since by that time it'd be 100% useless. But I intend to give a different kind of prize for the player's efforts. One I don't think that has been done yet in a quest. :3 Or maybe I'll give it as an extra to getting 100%, since like I said, the boss is intended to be a challenge near impossible fight, so making the player beat it to unlock this goodie may be cruel and mean very few will ever see it.

What I want to do is give some sort of incentive to get 100%. Maybe drop a few hints that there's something at the end of it all and hope the player will go after it. If not, I'll have had fun making it...Or so I hope. XD

Thinking on a design point of view is so much fun. :3

[Orithan]

I don't think anyone got my point about having 90 HCPs in Diamond Quest. Firstly, many are easy to get once you find them (although you may have to wait until you get an item and come back later for some of them) and not very far from each over (many are also hidden in random bushes and the likes too). Secondly, they account for HALF of your max HC count and you most likely won't get to the point of even encountering anything that has a power of 64 (16 hearts) unless you intentally skip tunics (although the Blue Tunic will be given in the Tower of Time, during the midgame). Thirdly, it is a boon for defensive players who hate to see a single death on their record (like myself), and every bit matters (for refrence; you can have a max of 11 hearts with two of them in HCPs when you fight the L3 boss, which has attacks that deal 2.5 hearts damage).

I feel that going the extra mile to get that extra upgrade, no matter the size, would make my game eaiser. Collecting just that one HCP makes my game that much eaiser to me.

However, Nintendo HAS made real mistakes with HCPs in some of the titles; most notably LttP, while I won't provide a long-winded explaination as to why, but I will say that the difficulty system of the Dark World as a whole really contributed to it .

Rambled a bit, back on topic: I say HCPs are not the best things as things to hunt for in ZC, but neither are HCs. HCs simply give too much to be distrubited in anything but mandatory dungeons, while HCPs give too little if sparsely scattered around the overworld. I think questmakers should balance it out enough so we get the best of both worlds.

[Radien]

Keiichi:

Whether or not the added life is "extra" and effectively optional depends on the quest. In the official Zelda games, yes, Heart Pieces are typically pretty optional due to the low difficulty Nintendo usually sticks to.


Nathaniel:

That's an interesting idea -- tweaking the frequency of HCP rewards -- and fairly valid. But it might be a little awkward since the later HCPs would have to be easier to find to account for their frequency, in keeping with the "difficulty balanced with reward" idea.

Alternate collectible items are awesome. Although, I think there are ways to do them without scripting, but you have to be creative.

Alternate currency? I'll have to see how that works in Spirit Tracks (I'm assuming that's where Ore Chunks come in).


Yapollo:

That definitely is clever! And it'd feel like a fairer reward since most players attempt to explore the entire dungeon anyway. It reminds me of the stray fairies in Majora's Mask.


SpacemanDan:

I'm not sure how you're going to get the quest to measure 100% completion, but hey, that's cool. I do recommend giving an overpowered item if you can, though, because an extra "toy" is always appreciated.

If I may suggest: one "superpowered" reward you could give would be infinite ammo for each of the items that requires ammo (bombs, arrows, etc.). I remember Alundra had an item that gave you infinite MP (probably not possible in ZC). Since Alundra's spells were so powerful, and MP was so scarce, it was amazing how much it changed the game (and, obviously, made battles a cakewalk).

[SpacemanDan]

I'm not sure how you're going to get the quest to measure 100% completion, but hey, that's cool. I do recommend giving an overpowered item if you can, though, because an extra "toy" is always appreciated.

It's a little tedious, I will admit, but what I'd need to do is have a script to check each and every item I intend to put in the game and check if Link has it. Since having all the items will mean you've also done all the extra content, I think it'd be fair to use to judge 100% completion.

A toy, huh? I wouldn't mind giving something like that out, I just kind of thought since it's at a point where you've done everything, there'd be no point... I should give...MOAR HEARTS! *Runs*

Seriously though, I've always had a few ideas for things to give out, but again, I thought they would just be overlooked since there would never be a need for it anywhere. Then again, I did want to try a New Game + kind of thing... Hm... Speedruns, anyone? :3

If I may suggest: one "superpowered" reward you could give would be infinite ammo for each of the items that requires ammo (bombs, arrows, etc.). I remember Alundra had an item that gave you infinite MP (probably not possible in ZC). Since Alundra's spells were so powerful, and MP was so scarce, it was amazing how much it changed the game (and, obviously, made battles a cakewalk).

That would be so much fun to mess with. XD Magic is definitely possible; there's a magic ring called the Light Force or something that does this. (Gives infinite magic)

In the end though, it's all just to make actually going out of your way to get everything actually worth something more; kind of like recognizing that yes, you took time to get everything. I guess sort of like Pokemon when you complete your Pokedex you get that little certificate, except more useful or interesting. :3 I've always shot for 100% in most games and when I complete it, it's either a little rewarding to get some sort of acknowledgement for doing so or a little disappointing when nothing happens. (Still rewarding that you did it, but it almost feels like the developers didn't care if someone got everything.)

[Koh]

Now, look at all those goodies!
Giving your player a measly Heart Piece is boring and rude, in my opinion. Give them something fun instead.

That literally made me LOL. I just got a picture of you playing A Link to the Past, and as soon as you get one of the vast amount of Heart Pieces, you'd say "Nintendo, you're boring and rude for that!"

In my opinion, it's great to balance it. If you are going to use PoHs, don't dish them out as prizes for some off the wall challenge; They're great mini-game challenge prizes and fun to scatter all over the world .

[NoeL]

I'm not sure how you're going to get the quest to measure 100% completion, but hey, that's cool. I do recommend giving an overpowered item if you can, though, because an extra "toy" is always appreciated.

Can anyone say "Fierce Deity Mask"?

[Tree]

In games like, the oracle games, it's very hard to go without collecting at least a few of them. You know how many times I died in the Unicorn Cave with mostly all the heart containers? Or, maybe I just suck at Zelda

[trudatman]

while I do not use many of them, I do think they have a place. in HowHigh, I'm pretty sure I only offer them for sale (at 999), making it possible to grind for them. there certainly are many ways to distribute them. I think I like them as small rewards.

[Radien]

That literally made me LOL. I just got a picture of you playing A Link to the Past, and as soon as you get one of the vast amount of Heart Pieces, you'd say "Nintendo, you're boring and rude for that!"

In my opinion, it's great to balance it. If you are going to use PoHs, don't dish them out as prizes for some off the wall challenge; They're great mini-game challenge prizes and fun to scatter all over the world .

Well yeah... they were boring and rude. Although... I only played LttP once. I remember "indignations" from other games more clearly.

Can anyone say "Fierce Deity Mask"?

I can. FIERCE DIETY MASK.

Although I'm not sure how to translate something like that into a ZC-style reward.

while I do not use many of them, I do think they have a place. in HowHigh, I'm pretty sure I only offer them for sale (at 999), making it possible to grind for them. there certainly are many ways to distribute them. I think I like them as small rewards.

I do think making them available for sale is a better idea. Many games give small, but permanent rewards as available shop purchases. Or large, but limited rewards.

999 seems a bit much for just one Heart Piece, but I guess it really depends on how plentiful Rupees are in your game. It's hard to imagine that 999 is easy to come by, though, seeing as it is the maximum wallet size.


Addendum:

Another thing I wanted to mention is that I really don't think a single Heart Container is all that big of a reward... especially if you use the extended heart meter, in which case the value of each individual HC is reduced proportionally. We're brought to appreciate HCs more in games where they are rarer, but if given the choice between... say... a Heart Container and the Hookshot, would you really choose the Heart Container?... (not taking into account whether the Hookshot is required to advance, that is)

[Littlelink91]

This thread is just gonna piss people off. I understand perfectly well that you people are allowed to share your own opinions when speaking out about the efficacy of heart container pieces. But this thread is grown dubitably to the point of monotonous correspondence. I don't like this. I find it rather disconcerting that something like this would even be brought up. If you don't like heart container pieces, too bad! Do you understand what i'm saying here? I'll put this simple for ya. Its Zelda. Its just how it is. Its how its made, its how its mean't, its how it goes, its how it is. And if you don't like it, then too bad for you. To me, its rewarding to seek out supplements mean't to increase your total amount of life. It offers players a challenge which sums incredibly to how adventurous and curious you truly are. I've gotten my word in, this will be all i'm going to say about this. Thank you for reading.

Edited by littlelink91, 22 March 2011 - 03:08 AM.

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

This thread is just gonna piss people off. I understand perfectly well that you people are allowed to share your own opinions when speaking out about the efficacy of heart container pieces. But this thread is grown dubitably to the point of monotonous correspondence. I don't like this. I find it rather disconcerting that something like this would even be brought up. If you don't like heart container pieces, too bad! Do you understand what i'm saying here? I'll put this simple for ya. Its Zelda. Its just how it is. Its how its made, its how its mean't, its how it goes, its how it is. And if you don't like it, then too bad for you. To me, its rewarding to seek out supplements mean't to increase your total amount of life. It offers players a challenge which sums incredibly to how adventurous and curious you truly are. I've gotten my word in, this will be all i'm going to say about this. Thank you.

Piss people off? I don't see why it should piss anyone off. That's like saying "Well, I love my bananas, and you don't, and that's fine, but if you make a topic about it, it'll piss people off!". It's completely irrational. There's literally no reason for this threat to piss anyone off, and if anyone for some weird reason has a problem with it, they don't have to participate in the discussion. I admire what Radien is doing here. He's not trying to say "You are all doing this wrong!", he's just talking about what is essentially game design. If one is no longer allowed to make a topic in order to spark a discussion, the entire point of having a forum in the first place goes to waste. It's called a discussion forum for a reason

If anything, posting a post in a topic saying nothing but basically "this thread is bad because it conflicts with peoples opinions" is completely unnecessary, and it has no place in the topic, because all it does it open the gates for more people to post the same kinds of posts, and eventually, it'll ruin the topic, and it's basic premise.

Again, if you can't handle that other people have different opinions than you, and that they like talking about it in a completely calm and non-offensive fashion, don't bother reading the thread in the first place, least of all actually reply. Thank you.

[Alestance]

One of the things I had planned for my quest(that sadly hasnt seen any action in a while) was that HCPs would instantly add life to your health bar, rather than having to need all four to get the benefit of having more health.

This may not look right for everyone because I chose to use a health bar rather than a heart array to show life. It was easier because I was planning on having a LOT OF collectible health power-ups, and lots of monsters that would do insane damage to the unprepared.

[Radien]

This thread is just gonna piss people off. I understand perfectly well that you people are allowed to share your own opinions when speaking out about the efficacy of heart container pieces. But this thread is grown dubitably to the point of monotonous correspondence. I don't like this. I find it rather disconcerting that something like this would even be brought up. If you don't like heart container pieces, too bad! Do you understand what i'm saying here? I'll put this simple for ya. Its Zelda. Its just how it is. Its how its made, its how its mean't, its how it goes, its how it is. And if you don't like it, then too bad for you. To me, its rewarding to seek out supplements mean't to increase your total amount of life. It offers players a challenge which sums incredibly to how adventurous and curious you truly are. I've gotten my word in, this will be all i'm going to say about this. Thank you for reading.

I would suggest that perhaps you knew (or maybe decided) what you were going to think of this thread before you even clicked on it. "Monotonous correspondence"... if you think that something NEW could be added to the discussion, by all means, do so.

Now, let me put this in perspective: I have been playing The Legend of Zelda ever since Zelda 2 came out. That was, oh, about 1988. Before some of the members on PureZC were born. I'm quite aware of when each of the now-traditional Zelda elements came around, and how often they've been used.

There is something to be said about every single Zelda element from over the years. Even the "top-down vs. side-scrolling" topic has been breached. I am not the type of person who says "love it or leave it." I don't see how there is anything productive about loving a game series and never questioning anything about it. If that were the case, people would have accepted that Zelda had switched to side-scrolling back in Zelda 2, and dropped its original musical composer. Fans wouldn't have demanded that Nintendo bring back the top-down perspective and Koji Kondo's overworld theme.

Also, your arguments about increasing the life meter do not say much specifically about Heart Pieces. Anything that can be done with Heart Pieces can just as easily be said about Heart Containers. In fact, Heart Containers literally do the job 4 times as well.



For that matter, I have a different suggestion for people who have this strangely sentimental attachment to Pieces of Heart:

Rather than requiring four HCPsb before life is increased at all, give that quarter heart immediately. I know it's possible in 2.5. You COULD have a life meter with a maximum of "3 1/4 hearts," for instance. And why not? It makes more sense than withholding the reward.

Alundra, a game similar to Zelda, does something similar. It has "Life Vessels," like Heart Containers, but they always give you one HP immediately. The total HP you can obtain is somewhere around 60, and HP are never subdivided. See how it works out similarly?

[Moosh]

See, the problem is that Zelda Classic doesn't like handling maximum HP that isn't in increments of 16. So if you want 1/4 hearts, you'll have to script the continue feature to work properly...