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#1 Radien

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 09:13 PM

Ever since Link to the Past, "Pieces of Heart" have been a staple of the Zelda series. Personally, I think this is a major flaw in the series, right along with Rupee inflation. Since it is so common in the series, it has carried over to most fan-made quests. I can't really control what the main Zelda series does, but I can tell you exactly why I think we don't need these items in ZC.

Personally, I am of the opinion that Heart Container Pieces are useless. How much good does one FOURTH of a heart do you, especially when you don't even get it right away? And if the player is good at Zelda, extra life isn't what they need most, anyway. In fact, I think ZC has less use of HCPs than the Zelda series, because most modern Zelda games have dozens and dozens of side quests, and each one needs a reward. Most ZC quests, however, are much smaller than Wind Waker or Twilight Princess, so they don't require as many rewards to hand out.

But on the other hand, look at ZQuest's item list: in most versions of ZC, there are MORE available items to choose from than even the most complex official Zelda game. If that's the case, why should any of us resort to Heart Container Pieces?... We won't run out of rewards if we reserve a few of the optional ones for side quests. Doesn't it make sense to give a few big bonuses to people who actually bother to do the side quests?

Resist the urge to use useless HCPs! ZC has plenty of better items to reward your player with. Give a Magic Container, or a Candle, or a FULL Heart Container, or one of the many ammo upgrades. You do NOT need HCPs! I guarantee you will NOT run out of items, unless you give them to the player for "free" (meaning, without requiring them to complete a side quest for it). Heck, let's just go through all the optional items you can give players:

Arrow upgrade
Bomb Bag
Boomerang upgrade
Bracelet or Bracelet upgrade
Candle or Candle upgrade
Charge Ring 1 or 2
Din's Fire
Heart Container
Hookshot upgrade
Hover Boots
Letter / Potion
Magic Book (I know, this one kinda sucks)
Magic Container
Nayru's Love
Quiver upgrade
Ring or Ring upgrade
Scroll: Spin Attack
Scroll: Cross Beams
Scroll: Hurrican Spin
Scroll: Quake Hammer
Scroll: Super Quake
Scroll: Peril Beam
Peril Ring
Shield upgrade
Sword upgrade (Yeah, this one's a bit powerful)
Wallet upgrade
Wealth Medal upgrade
Whimsical Ring

...Most of the above items are optional (or could be optional) in any quest you make.

Now, look at all those goodies! icon_eek.gif
Giving your player a measly Heart Piece is boring and rude, in my opinion. Give them something fun instead.

And if you prefer, put those upgrades in shops. Then give large rupee rewards for doing side quests. That way, money will serve a purpose, too, and the player will get a choice between upgrades.

#2 Purplemandown

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 09:23 PM

You have some good points here. And I agree that some other items can and should be given for sidequests. However, I'm gonna have to disagree about the HCP. For starters, some quests (especially the more modern/larger ones) need a lot of rewards. Couple that with many dungeons with items, and you might run out (I know just in dungeons in Void of Madness, it's like 20+ required items[before you say anything, it's 13 dungeons...], plus upgrades, plus another 7ish items in required mini-dungeons, plus the massive size of my overworld [9x Z1], I would run out using just those. Granted, it's a little larger than typical, but...)

So, to sum up that wall, if your quest is small, then yes, you don't really need to use HCPs. However, if you have tons of sidequests, a huge overworld, and things like that, they can be useful.

My opinion, anyhow...

#3 Tree

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 09:30 PM

I'm sorry to say this, but I completely disagree. I actually think what you just said there is insane! How could a game be Zelda with out HCP?! I'm still putting them in. And I do not mean to offend you in any way. Just my opinion and my opinion alone. Nobody has the right to argue because it's just an opinion you know?

#4 Shane

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 09:36 PM

QUOTE(Keiichi123 @ Mar 19 2011, 08:30 PM) View Post

I'm sorry to say this, but I completely disagree. I actually think what you just said there is insane! How could a game be Zelda with out HCP?! I'm still putting them in. And I do not mean to offend you in any way. Just my opinion and my opinion alone. Nobody has the right to argue because it's just an opinion you know?


*cough cough* Zelda first and second quest *cough cough*. Radien I completely agree with you here all the way, you don't want a player with full advantage with items plus two rows of health.

You've got the damage rings, shields and potions to cover you anyway.

EDIT: Insane? No, it's his opinion just like yours icon_rolleyes.gif.

Edited by Midnight_King, 19 March 2011 - 09:45 PM.


#5 Mitchfork

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 09:36 PM

QUOTE(Keiichi123 @ Mar 19 2011, 09:30 PM) View Post

I'm sorry to say this, but I completely disagree. I actually think what you just said there is insane! How could a game be Zelda with out HCP?! I'm still putting them in. And I do not mean to offend you in any way. Just my opinion and my opinion alone. Nobody has the right to argue because it's just an opinion you know?

Well, I guess The Legend of Zelda wasn't a Zelda game then. EDIT: Ninja'd.

I think that getting HCP's in main series games is disappointing because you don't really need 5 extra hearts at the end of the game. As a player, I never go out of my way to find HCP's, so as a game designer I can't find the incentive to try and hide them. I completely agree with Radien's post.

#6 Nathaniel

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 09:36 PM

I think Radien actually makes a good point. There are so many items and rewards available for ZC, that the pieces really aren't necessary, even for a decent sized quest. Sure, you are free to use them, but there shouldn't be an urge or obligation to use them. Also, obtaining any items or rewards within a short amount of time from each other (such as less than 10 minutes apart) doesn't make them feel like much of an accomplishment, or that you really didn't truly earn them. With HCPs, there may be that urge to give out rewards like candy, or by not doing much to reach them. You could also make the same point about obtaining keys. Is it better to have 15 keys in one dungeon, and not have to do much to get each of them, or is it better to have 5 or fewer keys in the dungeon and have to do more to obtain each of them? Basically, you can do more with less. The less you give out, the more you have to do to get each reward or item.

Oh, and Keiichi, the essence of having an argument is a difference of opinion. What you said in your last sentence seems self-contradicting to me.

QUOTE
Nobody has the right to argue because it's just an opinion you know?

If we didn't have the right to argue, then only one person's opinion can be expressed, and nobody can disagree with it. Either that, or no opinions can be expressed. Anyway, I didn't mean for that to derail a great discussion. My apologies in advance if it does, not that it should.

#7 Tree

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 10:00 PM

QUOTE(Midnight_King @ Mar 19 2011, 09:36 PM) View Post

QUOTE(Keiichi123 @ Mar 19 2011, 08:30 PM) View Post

I'm sorry to say this, but I completely disagree. I actually think what you just said there is insane! How could a game be Zelda with out HCP?! I'm still putting them in. And I do not mean to offend you in any way. Just my opinion and my opinion alone. Nobody has the right to argue because it's just an opinion you know?


*cough cough* Zelda first and second quest *cough cough*. Radien I completely agree with you here all the way, you don't want a player with full advantage with items plus two rows of health.

You've got the damage rings, shields and potions to cover you anyway.

EDIT: Insane? No, it's his opinion just like yours icon_rolleyes.gif.

Do you have to be so literal? Heart container pieces didn't exist back then. God why do you have to be so literal. It's just annoying. First off, I was just joking around. And 2nd, it's my opinion and arguing about it is just stupid. I'm just sick of all the arguing. I just want peace on this site for once! icon_frown.gif

#8 Mitchfork

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 10:13 PM

QUOTE(Keiichi123 @ Mar 19 2011, 10:00 PM) View Post

Do you have to be so literal? Heart container pieces didn't exist back then. God why do you have to be so literal. It's just annoying. First off, I was just joking around. And 2nd, it's my opinion and arguing about it is just stupid. I'm just sick of all the arguing. I just want peace on this site for once! icon_frown.gif
If you want peace on this site then you should start by taking a deep breath and looking at what's happening. This is a thread where someone offered their opinion. People are free to disagree on opinions! It's the definition of an opinion. Midnight_King offered his opinion in a completely respectful way, and in fact didn't even really argue with you. You have to be the one that assesses a situation rationally and say, "Hey, he disagrees with me. Nothing wrong with that." There's likewise nothing wrong with arguing that's done in a respectful and controlled manner.

After all, aren't you the one that disagreed with Radien in the first place? There's nothing wrong with that, and it's exactly what Midnight_King did to you. Overreacting gets us nowhere.

#9 Radien

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 11:38 PM

Keiichi:

I think you need to cool down. Just because it turns out I disagree with you, that doesn't mean I was targeting you.

And I think you didn't mean exactly what you said. I'm guessing what you meant was "no matter what you think, you can't make me change my quest."

That's true. I can't make you change your quest. And even if I could, why would I want to? It's your quest, not mine.

But I CAN disagree all I want. All I'm doing here is actually stating my opinion, because I think it could help people in the long run. And in general, I have a right to argue that opinion. You can respond, too, and we can discuss it. I'm sure there's a lot to be said about HCPs.


QUOTE(Keiichi123 @ Mar 19 2011, 08:00 PM) View Post
*cough cough* Zelda first and second quest *cough cough*. Radien I completely agree with you here all the way, you don't want a player with full advantage with items plus two rows of health.

You've got the damage rings, shields and potions to cover you anyway.

I don't entirely understand what you mean. Are you saying the player would get too strong with too many hearts? Actually, that's not what I'm saying.

Whether the player is "strong enough" depends entirely on how difficult the questmaker makes their quest. You can't judge the strength of the items without playing the quest. Are you facing Gels in level 9, or Darknut Death Knights in level 1? Without seeing the quest, we don't know!

But I do encourage the use of damage rings, shields, and potions, though. Especially shields and potions.

However, I think that ideally, damage rings can be mostly phased out of any Zelda game. Note how the most recent Zelda games don't make much use of damage reduction. OoT had a power-up that was similar to a blue ring at the VERY end of the game, but not before then. Even then, I don't think it needed that power-up.


As for LoZ 1st Quest, LoZ 2nd Quest, and Zelda 2: Adventure of Link... yes, HCPs had not been "invented" back then. But that doesn't matter. When LTTP came around, I said "these new HCPs are a bad idea." And I still think that. There are other ideas that the series has gotten rid of. Some of them were horrible, while others were either uninteresting or just unnecessary. Here are some examples of items that were eventually phased out of the original Zelda series (or changed drastically):

Ladder / LoZ
Magic Book / LoZ
Magic Key / LoZ
Boots (of water-walking) / Z2:AoL
~Most of the spells from Zelda 2~
Magic Powder / LTTP (really, though, this was sort of a reincarnation of "Spell" magic from Zelda 2...)
Bug-Catching Net / LTTP (they just did away with the net and kept the bottle idea)
Hover Boots / OoT

...I'm sure there are even more, but I think you get the point. All of these are vintage Zelda items, some of which were enjoyable for a time, but which were removed from the series, mostly for reasons related to functionality or game balance. The series is still good without them, and in some cases, better.

Just because an item appeared once, twice, or several times in the Zelda series... that doesn't necessarily mean it defines a Zelda game. The Zelda series is not the Bible -- Zelda game designers are just as capable of making mistakes as other game designers (although I'd agree that they have a good track record).

Fans clamor for old elements to return, but a series gets NEW fans by becoming better... and you make a game better by trying new things. And to do that, usually you have to remove something. There's nothing wrong with giving that a try. Believe it or not, fans will survive if your Zelda quest doesn't have HCPs. Or the Ladder. Or heck, even the Hookshot (and that's an item that ISN'T broken).

#10 Russ

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 12:12 AM

So Radien, let me ask you this then. In my quest, I'm using heart halves. Basically, getting 2 heart pieces nags you a new container. Would you say that makes it worth it, or are you still against them?

#11 Chakaa

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 01:19 AM

I like Russ' idea, I think I might switch to that before it's too late. I'm definitely not using HCP's in my second quest, I plan on having it with more minor upgrades (like +5 bomb max type upgrades, like in Super Metroid).

#12 Radien

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 01:46 AM

QUOTE(Russ @ Mar 19 2011, 10:12 PM) View Post
So Radien, let me ask you this then. In my quest, I'm using heart halves. Basically, getting 2 heart pieces nags you a new container. Would you say that makes it worth it, or are you still against them?

Heart halves are exactly twice as good as 1/4th HCPs, and half as good as Heart Containers. icon_wink.gif

So I guess they're all right. It's like a compromise. But don't make them TOO hard to obtain.

QUOTE(FefeRawft @ Mar 19 2011, 11:19 PM) View Post
I like Russ' idea, I think I might switch to that before it's too late. I'm definitely not using HCP's in my second quest, I plan on having it with more minor upgrades (like +5 bomb max type upgrades, like in Super Metroid).

I like ammo upgrades. Ammo upgrades are handy! Keeping your life full is important, but so is having enough bombs, arrows, magic, rupees, etc. ...


#13 Moosh

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 02:30 AM

My solution to those pesky heart pieces: make them give 1/4 of an extra heart.

Edit: Wanna know what the biggest middle finger I've ever gotten from a quest was? Finding a HCP at the end of a dungeon in Ganon's Claim. Good quest instantly ruined. I hate them. You might claim not having HCPs is like having a Zelda game without link. To that I say go play MMDWR. Also, Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks say hello. Problem, HCP supporters?

Edited by Pokemonmaster64, 20 March 2011 - 02:37 AM.


#14 Radien

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 03:23 AM

QUOTE(Pokemonmaster64 @ Mar 20 2011, 12:30 AM) View Post
My solution to those pesky heart pieces: make them give 1/4 of an extra heart.

I'm not sure I understand. Isn't that what they normally do?

Or do you mean they should immediately increase your maximum heart meter by 1/4 heart, rather than waiting until you complete the next full heart? If so, I have considered trying that. But I dislike HCPs enough that I'd rather just take them out completely.

#15 Orithan

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 03:54 AM

I really disagree with Radien. While HCPs may be measley in his opnion, but I like the idea of scattering lots of HCPs all over the overworld; gives the player more incentive to explore very nook and cranny. Diamond Quest will have many HCPs on the overworld and there are two in each dungeon and tomb. Combine this with the fact that five are needed to get a new HCP, I have a character who will sell Link HCPs among other rare items (mind you, you can't buy them twice at a single location), an overworld consisting of 5 BS overworlds and you can have 36 total with enemies that can cause 16+ hearts damage with only green tunic; HCPs in best way I feel like putting them.

I plan to put a grand total of 90 HCPs, which would amount to just 18 full HCs w/o the 90 HCPs. Since Diamond Quest is a quest where you will be scathing for every upgrade around, espically extra HCs, I felt it was nessacary. After all; the final boss will show no mercy if you never bothered to collect the HCPs, as he will have several attacks that OHKO you if you didn't explored enough to find at LEAST five HCPs to increase your HC count or find the final tunic.

To get back on topic; I'm saying that HCPs done like what I plan in Diamond Quest can be felt as nessacary upgrades and make the player REALLY explore, allowing them to run into other goodies, say the Whismiscal Ring, while collecting the HCPs they need to stand up to tough foes like the Whispies. I can see Radien's point here; a small quest doesn't need them much, but large or difficult quests (Hero of Dreams, NTAEL, Ballad of a Bloodline, etc...) may need them.


Edited by Orin XD, 20 March 2011 - 03:55 AM.



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