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Does anyone else think we're giving this too much thought?


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#1 Anthus

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 06:37 PM

That's right. We all have our own theories for time lines and such, but has any one ever thought, that maybe they either A), just go in order (for the most part), or B) Just plain don't have a clear order?

Hear me out: It makes sense. In the manual for Zelda 1, the events that are described as "legend" in AlttP and OoT happen in the game. Zelda, and Link aren't reincarnated forms of past people. Ganon, king of thieves gets the Triforce, of power, and Zelda hides the Triforce of Wisdom. Impa must find someone with enough courage to take on Ganon. Link doesn't have the Triforce of Courage yet. Bam, Link gets the Triforce of Wisdom, and destroys, not seals, destroys Ganon.

Next up is Zelda 2. The sleeping spell is cast on Zelda by a wizard because her brother, the prince wants the Triforce of Wisdom. Impa tells Link to get off his ass once again, and get the Triforce of Courage from the Great Palace to break the curse on Zelda. No Ganon, right? So, how does he come back? Well, you need to blood of the one who killed Ganon to resurrect him. Okay. Link is only human, and he's gotta die sometime, right?

We knew all this though, right? Now, here is were ALttP comes into play. The manual stated that over centuries the legends may have been obscured or lost. The events of Zelda 1 are referred to as Legend. It says a thief, Ganondorf Dragmire, or Mandrag Ganon got the Triforce, and transformed the golden land into a place of misery blah, blah, blah. They also talk about an Imprisoning war. This is were it gets sketchy, but it's -almost- safe to assume the war never happened, and it is a misconception about a single hero (Link of Z1). But, I do think there was a lot of fighting during the time of Zelda 1 over the Golden land.

LA is a direct sequel, and not really a main Zelda game. AlttP Link leaves Hyrule for a personal journey...

OoT comes around. Like AlttP before it, it talks about creation of Hyrule. That's right. People think just because it goes into depth about Hyrule's creation, it is first. Read the AlttP manual. It talkes about it nearly the exact same way to OoT does. It says that the Triforce may be under the desert too. Hmm. Ganondorf is from the desert, right? Coincidence? Misconstrued Hylian Lore? You decide. So, how did Ganon come back if Link left and he was completely destroyed? Simple. He is reincarnated by the Triforce itself. That's right. TP Spoiler Play TP, and you'll see.[/spoiler]. Bam. At the end of OoT, Ganon is not destroyed. Instead, he is sealed inside the sacred realm.

Majora's Mask. Another direct sequel. Young Link leaves, new Link time.

Nintendo stated TP falls in between OoT, and WW. This paragraph contains TP spoilers... Anyway, Ganondorf breaks free, asdf he is sealed again, but this time, watch very closely at the end of TP: He looses the Triforce of Power, and the Master Sword appears to loose it's power as well.

Here's the Fado-Laruto-Hero-Never-Appearing-Era gap we thought TP would fill. "Zelda Wii" anyone?

Or, the oracle games? Perhaps, it is TP link in both Oracle games, and that's why he wasn't there to save Hyrule in the missing Zelda.

Wind Waker. OSHI- mode. No hero. STFU Ganon, flood Hyrule. New Link get's Triforce of Courage, and seals Ganondorf away, and destroys Hyrule, Ganon, and the Triforce once and for all.


This one of my theories... So, as this stands, it looks like Z1, Z2, AlttP, LA, OoT, MM, TP, OoA/S, WW. Another one is all the same, but AlttP is after TP, but before oracle games, and so is LA. Link leaves, doesn't return in WW. I like this better, but it breaks the order: Z1, Z2, OoT, MM, TP, AlttP, LA, OoA/S, WW. I am also a fan of The split Time line theory. Well, at least part of it anyway... I thought about that before I saw this a few days ago too. I guess I'm not the only one. Mine was slightly different though. The FS games weren't included.

Also, I have to ask, what kind of Zelda related forum lacks an Official Time Line Discussion Thread? icon_razz.gif

Discuss:

#2 Radien

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 07:30 PM

Hmm. The way I see it, Nintendo never worries too much about direct connections. They keep doing things that could be construed as fitting into an overarching timeline, but their first priority is to make sure each individual game is playable on its own. Think about it: Twilight Princess stands very well on its own without playing the other Zeldas. So does Ocarina of Time. I think that's one reason why Nintendo is fond of doing prequels: set it early enough, and they don't have to carry over nearly as much from the early games.

Another thing they like to do is make parallels between the different games. That means things that resemble events each game refers to, but not in a concrete way. Here are a few examples:

- Ocarina of Time resembles the sealing war from LTTP's intro sequence, but it has some definite story conflicts.
- Various masks appear in Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, though Majora's Mask is never mentioned.
- (Highlight for minor TP spoiler.) Right before TP's 3rd dungeon, you are charged with thawing Zora's Domain, which everyone wanted to do in Ocarina of Time, though TP's is not the same Zora's Domain.
- The Royal Crypt in Minish Cap is highly nostalgic of the first Zelda, but we're not sure whether it's actually connected in any way.
- Wind Waker has a Spectacle Island, though it's probably not the same landmark as Spectacle Rock from the first Zelda.
- (Highlight for a moderate TP spoiler.) TP's sixth dungeon is the Temple of Time, and looks like it could be the same Temple of Time as OoT, though they're never specific about whether or not you're traveling back in time when you enter it.
- In Wind Waker's intro sequence, it is said that the flood came when the Hero failed to appear. it would be easy to explain what went on during that time, but rather than do so in another game, they leave you to take it for granted that it happened sometime before Wind Waker.


Do you see what I'm getting at?... Nintendo has no qualms with leaving us hanging, as long as the more obsessive fans can dream up their own plausible explanation. icon_shrug.gif Their design team is more concerned with what the player does during the game than what they know. While not everybody likes this setup, it's definitely good for keeping a longstanding series alive through many generations of game systems.

We can always discuss the connections between the various games, but I think we should treat them much like the non-existent episodes 7-9 of Star Wars: they exist somewhere in their creator's head; we'll never be able to find out for sure what's in his head, so speculation is okay as long as it's done in fun.

#3 Anthus

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 07:57 PM

Your reply was the reason for my first statement. I know what you mean. They make the connection obscure enough that any one game could be connected to any other given game at any given time in the story (Though, it is obvious some of them are). I was just saying, what if they do go in order? Obviously, Nintendo likes to leave this open to interpretation, and this is yet another interpretation based on what is given in their manuals...

..Bastards. Where our time line, Miyamoto ?! icon_razz.gif

Edited by Anthus, 01 January 2007 - 07:59 PM.


#4 Radien

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 08:33 PM

QUOTE(Anthus @ Jan 1 2007, 05:57 PM) View Post

Your reply was the reason for my first statement. I know what you mean. They make the connection obscure enough that any one game could be connected to any other given game at any given time in the story (Though, it is obvious some of them are). I was just saying, what if they do go in order? Obviously, Nintendo likes to leave this open to interpretation, and this is yet another interpretation based on what is given in their manuals...

..Bastards. Where our time line, Miyamoto ?! icon_razz.gif

Well, yeah, but then you went ahead to present your own theory, anyway. icon_wink.gif

As for Miyamoto, hehe, I don't even trust his word exactly anymore. His talent is his "golden touch" for knowing how to make games fun to play; these days the Zelda franchise is the product of so many minds that Miyamoto can't claim to be the #1 source for information anymore. He just knows what he likes, and usually what fans like, too.

As for the games in the main series, I am very certain of the order. Certain events point towards only one possible point at which each game could have occurred, even when so many questions are left unanswered. Here's the order that I think is essentially canon:

Ocarina, MM, TP, TWW, LTTP, LoZ, AoL

The handheld titles are all but unplaceable by nature, so I haven't included them. Though, from the sound of it, Phantom Hourglass MIGHT turn out to be a verifiable continuation of Wind Waker.

As for the first Zelda game, while it is chronologically the last game in the series, there's no reason why Ganon couldn't have been revived again. You see, the problem is that Link, Zelda, and Ganon have a "Highlander" sort of thing going on. To unite the Triforce, Link and Zelda are SUPPOSED to duke it out and see who comes out on top. icon_wink.gif As long as they fail to do this, the Triforce will remain split into pieces and without a single owner, and Ganon will always have a way to come back to reclaim what is his.

Why? Because Link and Zelda are unwilling to use the Triforce to attain immortality. This means that they will eventually die and leave the Triforce of Power unguarded. They are, of course, reincarnated each time. Apparently it's possible for their own personal Triforce to stay with them through their rebirth.

#5 Shoelace

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 09:23 PM

Well everyone knows that I studied the Zelda Timeline. I don't want to get into it because I talk to much about it. The reason why I studied it is most of all because of my series of quests I am making. I want them to fit the storyline. Anyways, you can read all about my opinion here and see how strong of an opinion I have:

http://www.armageddo...ead.php?t=94397

#6 Elemental

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 11:00 PM

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=SF8Ve2Dk6-0

i has movie.

#7 Radien

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 12:14 AM

Okay, Shoelace, uh... that's nice, but I'd rather here your surmised thoughts on it than read another plot argument thread from start to finish. icon_confused.gif That doesn't mean you can't copy/paste a few self-excerpts here, though, so be my guest.

QUOTE(Elemental @ Jan 1 2007, 09:00 PM) View Post

That's a very well thought-out theory they have there. icon_smile.gif Personally, I wouldn't try to fit the handhelds in, but it is true that they are becoming more and more closely related to the main Zelda story, thanks to the Wind Waker franchise having largely migrated to the handhelds.

It makes some sense to suggest that the Zelda timeline has split in two thanks to time travel (hats off to you, Chrono Cross icon_razz.gif ), but I think it's rather odd that they did it that way solely so they could say "Wind Waker and one of the Oracles games goes in timeline B; everything else in timeline A." However, the new main Zelda games are becoming harder and harder to place into the timeline, since they are all sequels to a prequel (Ocarina), so I can understand why they decided on that possibility. icon_shrug.gif

The other downside to their theory is that they try to connect the same Link to a LOT of different games, which is a bit too endeavorous in my opinion. That doesn't necessarily undermine the chronology, though. Since I didn't mention the handheld titles, the only part I really disagree about is that I don't think LTTP is the last game in the timeline (split or not).

Oh, and they still failed to reconcile the huge plot conflicts between Zelda 1 and Zelda 2. I guess it will always be that way, because back then they were far less interested in a cohesive story. icon_wink.gif

#8 NineLives

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 12:30 AM

wow
nice find for the video.

but I always thought the first zelda was first.... cause... yeah.

WAAIT
I just saw the video.

I have yet to play TP,
but, link is probably an adult by then, it couldnt have been that link in wind waker, and (spoilers, highlight to read)
TP has ganondorf, that means, that he was ressurected twice...
I am proud of the timeline they build, I hope TP does not shatter it.

Edited by NineLives, 02 January 2007 - 12:42 AM.


#9 Anthus

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 12:50 AM

Heh. That's the same video I posted in my first post...

TP Spoilers:
Ninelives, He's not resurrected in TP... He is freed from the sacred realm by the anger and hatred of Zant for Hyrule. He fed on Zant's anger and was able to come back into Hyrule. Also, TP, OoT, and WW all have separate Links.

#10 Radien

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 02:39 AM

That's right, Anthus; they're pretty clear about the fact that OoT, TP, and WW all have different incarnations of Link. Other games may be less clear.

#11 link3505

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 02:39 AM

After watching that movie, they bring up some good points. However, they messed up big at one point, though that's probably because they didn't reach this point in Twilight Princess

TP spoilers ahead

In "Hyrule A", with child Link and Zelda, Link returns to Master Sword to the Temple of Time. Later, in TP, Link goes to the Temple to obtain the sword. And that right there proves that TP comes between OoT and LttP. In the LttP manual (or in the game at some point), it says the Master Sword sleeps in a forest. As of TP, that's true. It also says there used to be a temple surrounding the place where the Master Sword is. OoT AND TP have that, and TP is obviously the same Temple of Time as OoT's, with a few extra features. This ties in OoT with both LttP and TP

I'll post my timeline theory later. I'm tired

#12 Alestance

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 04:56 AM

One thing that makes me think that Z1 and Z2 take place last is that they take place last. Why? The Christian ideas are spreading, the shield Link has, gets has the Christian cross on them. Thats my two cents.

Another thing: Z1 and Z2 never had the Master Sword, and Link managed to destroy Ganon in Z1.
What the heck? Have the people been worshiping the holy Master Sword all this time, only to discover another sword was much more powerful? Perhaps.

Edited by Master_of_Power, 02 January 2007 - 05:05 AM.


#13 Radien

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 05:03 AM

VERY concrete evidence there, Relic! And I thought it was just a gratuitous insert... I guess it really does reveal something.

However, you could say that with or without Link, the temple eventually fell into ruins in both timelines, and the Master Sword found its way way back to its resting place regardless of what happened in between the various games. icon_shrug.gif

#14 Alestance

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 05:35 AM

Ok, so LttP takes place before WW? if so, how does the sword find its way back to the castle, if only Link could have removed it from the pedistul(forgive my off spelling)?

#15 Radien

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 07:07 AM

QUOTE(Master_of_Power @ Jan 2 2007, 03:35 AM) View Post

Ok, so LttP takes place before WW? if so, how does the sword find its way back to the castle, if only Link could have removed it from the pedistul(forgive my off spelling)?

Well, Wind Waker didn't show Link returning the Master Sword to its resting place at the end of the game, either, so regardless of which one comes first it has the same problem.

You might do better to point out that its resting place in Wind Waker isn't the Temple of Time.

By the way, it's "pedestal."


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