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Option to Disable Continue Screen Music?


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#1 Anthus

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Posted 08 June 2021 - 01:02 AM

As it says on the tin. I know it sounds minor, but it would be a nice option. We can already disable the heart beep, and skip the ZC intro, so this seems like the next logical step. Plus, that song will have to go entirety once ZC is stripped of Zelda assets, right?


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#2 Jamian

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Posted 08 June 2021 - 03:37 AM

Better yet, let us pick the midi we want for it?


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#3 Emily

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Posted 08 June 2021 - 11:28 AM

Game->GameOverScreen[GOS_MIDI] = any midi you want;

Been available for a while, if you check ZScript_Additions / std_constants


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#4 Anthus

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Posted 08 June 2021 - 01:59 PM

Game->GameOverScreen[GOS_MIDI] = any midi you want;

Been available for a while, if you check ZScript_Additions / std_constants

 

Does this require scripting, or is this in ag.cgf? I meant something in ZC itself, like an option under settings or something.


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#5 P-Tux7

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Posted 08 June 2021 - 06:04 PM

Game->GameOverScreen[GOS_MIDI] = any midi you want;

Been available for a while, if you check ZScript_Additions / std_constants

 

You understand that people are going to look in the GUI for options in a GUI-based program, right?

 

You guys need to either put this stuff in the ZQuest GUI or at least have a "neat one-line scripts that you can get started with" document included with ZC. If the Palette Editor or Combo Editor (let alone the Enemy Editors or Subscreen Editors)'s options were instead only settable via script instead of ZQuest's GUI, I guarantee you that most people would have flat-out ignored customizing them and only used the presets. You know why? Because having those options there in the program tempts you to play with them, whereas putting quest customization options in ZScript/Additions.txt will make most people ignore them because "oh those are ADVANCED features". No it does not matter that this was actually a simple one-line script, ZCers have been trained for 20 years to look in the ZQuest GUI for new options, not the scripting manual. Every ZC tutorial shows the GUI, almost no typing required.

 

For EVERY one-line-of-script feature that does not have an equivalent in ZQuest's GUI, imagine at least 80% of people not even KNOWING they can use that feature, let alone the mental roadblock of looking in the big scary scripting manual for it. 1.92 and 2.50 had BOATLOADS of new features that did not require ZScript, and people are not used to looking in the ZScript manual for simple feature toggles such as this. You, Timelord, DImi, etc. are programmers, so you're very comfortable with TYPING to customize your quest instead of CLICKING. You guys are absolutely fine with looking in scripting documentation for the new features that you can use. However, you're not like most of ZC's AUDIENCE - the people you are making these features to be used by. For every script-only feature like this, people will make threads like this left and right. How are you going to stop that? You can't - unless you give the new feature to most of the audience in the format that they want it in.

 

IF IT IS NOT IN ZQUEST MOST PEOPLE WILL NOT KNOW IT IS A FEATURE.


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#6 Emily

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Posted 08 June 2021 - 06:51 PM

...most features that are added to the gui start as script features, because it's easier to make scripts able to do something simple, and then integrate that into the gui. We have a tiny fucking dev team. 2.55 is not finished. Maybe be a little bit fucking patient instead of screaming at us?


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#7 Aslion

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Posted 08 June 2021 - 07:06 PM

You understand that people are going to look in the GUI for options in a GUI-based program, right?

 

You guys need to either put this stuff in the ZQuest GUI or at least have a "neat one-line scripts that you can get started with" document included with ZC. If the Palette Editor or Combo Editor (let alone the Enemy Editors or Subscreen Editors)'s options were instead only settable via script instead of ZQuest's GUI, I guarantee you that most people would have flat-out ignored customizing them and only used the presets. You know why? Because having those options there in the program tempts you to play with them, whereas putting quest customization options in ZScript/Additions.txt will make most people ignore them because "oh those are ADVANCED features". No it does not matter that this was actually a simple one-line script, ZCers have been trained for 20 years to look in the ZQuest GUI for new options, not the scripting manual. Every ZC tutorial shows the GUI, almost no typing required.

 

For EVERY one-line-of-script feature that does not have an equivalent in ZQuest's GUI, imagine at least 80% of people not even KNOWING they can use that feature, let alone the mental roadblock of looking in the big scary scripting manual for it. 1.92 and 2.50 had BOATLOADS of new features that did not require ZScript, and people are not used to looking in the ZScript manual for simple feature toggles such as this. You, Timelord, DImi, etc. are programmers, so you're very comfortable with TYPING to customize your quest instead of CLICKING. You guys are absolutely fine with looking in scripting documentation for the new features that you can use. However, you're not like most of ZC's AUDIENCE - the people you are making these features to be used by. For every script-only feature like this, people will make threads like this left and right. How are you going to stop that? You can't - unless you give the new feature to most of the audience in the format that they want it in.

 

IF IT IS NOT IN ZQUEST MOST PEOPLE WILL NOT KNOW IT IS A FEATURE.

how are you this mad lol


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#8 Emily

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Posted 08 June 2021 - 07:17 PM

Does this require scripting, or is this in ag.cgf? I meant something in ZC itself, like an option under settings or something.

Anyway, as an option for *ZC*, no. That'd be your music sliders job, just as for any other music from the quest (for volume). It's an option for questmakers, via scripting.



#9 Shane

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Posted 08 June 2021 - 07:21 PM

...That was mad? That sounded more concerned, because I agree with P-Tux7 here. There was some miscommunication clearly, because I too was under the impression this feature being integrated into the editor was rejected and would remain as a bit of obscure knowledge for most of the ZC audience, which leads to developers getting requests like these and the requester getting the "script it yourself" response which has been a growing trend. If time was needed, it should have been clarified.

 

Anyways, good to see there's a way to edit it at least! It's a thing that has bothered me because I don't use MIDIs. :)


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#10 P-Tux7

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Posted 08 June 2021 - 07:48 PM

...most features that are added to the gui start as script features, because it's easier to make scripts able to do something simple, and then integrate that into the gui. We have a tiny fucking dev team. 2.55 is not finished. Maybe be a little bit fucking patient instead of screaming at us?

How am I to know whether or not a feature is planned to be in the editor at all? There was a rudimentary version of enemy size-changing in 2.50's ZScript, and it took at least five or six years from when 2.50 was released in 2014 (to whatever alpha had it in 2019) for that to be in the GUI. That's an incredibly complex example, sure, but it's the one that comes to mind first. When I asked for a "set whether or not an enemy's fireballs are boss fireballs" feature, Timelord responded to that thread with an NPC script (which does at least work, thanks) for it for it around 2019. Neither that thread nor this current one have stated the scripted solutions as anything but the definitive way to do them in ZC 2.55 - nothing about "We'll add this to ZQuest later, but if you want to do it now..." That's totally fine, but it needs to be made more clear. I'm not naming names, but I've had issues with advertising for 2.55's alphas (which is what I'm supposed to be doing so we can get a larger testing base) on Discord and having to distinguish between ZQuest and GUI features, and some of my friends have had the same complaint. I'm sorry and I know it must be hard, but I have noticed that this scope-confusion or ZScript-only feature set is causing people to not be excited for adopting 2.55 and that's an issue because of the lack-of-testers thing. You saw that people were excited to adopt 1.92 and report all the horrible bugs that it had far more than they're doing so for 2.55, and I believe that that issue comes down to the GUI thing.

Anyway, as an option for *ZC*, no. That'd be your music sliders job, just as for any other music from the quest (for volume). It's an option for questmakers, via scripting.

This final sentence is correct in a specific sense, but for a lot of people something that is "via scripting" is not an option. They probably wouldn't know it was an option WITH scripting until they made a thread about it (like this one). That's my point. Most people look in the main documentation and ZQuest GUI for features. If it isn't visible there, they won't know it exists. And the issue that leads to is confusion about what ZC 2.55's features currently are or will finally be, and creating threads like this one because they didn't even know it was in ZScript yet. And the lack-of-bug-testers issue, but I covered that above.


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#11 Anthus

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Posted 08 June 2021 - 10:54 PM

I was just asking about a toggle option in the GUI. I wish it were an easy option to add, but this is the ZC lore. To clarify my OP, I simply wanted a ZC player option to mute continue music. Asking someone to 'use the sliders' mid play isn't really ideal either. Which one of these is the continue music? <.<

unknown.png


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#12 Emily

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 07:15 AM

I was just asking about a toggle option in the GUI. I wish it were an easy option to add, but this is the ZC lore. To clarify my OP, I simply wanted a ZC player option to mute continue music. Asking someone to 'use the sliders' mid play isn't really ideal either. Which one of these is the continue music? <.<

unknown.png

No, I was saying you would turn down your master midi volume. Because it's music like any other music in the quest.

Do you want a button to mute each individual midi and sfx in the quest? What is so special about the continue music?

And if I'm coming off as pissy, apologies, I'm gonna blame that on P-Tux.

 

 

How am I to know whether or not a feature is planned to be in the editor at all?

Maybe respond with a "Is this planned for the editor?" instead of a full rant? If you asked that, the answer would have been a simple "Yeah, when we have time to get around to it. It's not a high priority right now." But generally if you want to know something, asking helps, instead of assuming and going off on a whole goddamn rant.

There was a rudimentary version of enemy size-changing in 2.50's ZScript, and it took at least five or six years from when 2.50 was released in 2014 (to whatever alpha had it in 2019) for that to be in the GUI. That's an incredibly complex example, sure, but it's the one that comes to mind first. When I asked for a "set whether or not an enemy's fireballs are boss fireballs" feature, Timelord responded to that thread with an NPC script (which does at least work, thanks) for it for it around 2019. Neither that thread nor this current one have stated the scripted solutions as anything but the definitive way to do them in ZC 2.55 - nothing about "We'll add this to ZQuest later, but if you want to do it now..." That's totally fine, but it needs to be made more clear. I'm not naming names, but I've had issues with advertising for 2.55's alphas (which is what I'm supposed to be doing so we can get a larger testing base) on Discord and having to distinguish between ZQuest and GUI features, and some of my friends have had the same complaint. I'm sorry and I know it must be hard, but I have noticed that this scope-confusion or ZScript-only feature set is causing people to not be excited for adopting 2.55 and that's an issue because of the lack-of-testers thing. You saw that people were excited to adopt 1.92 and report all the horrible bugs that it had far more than they're doing so for 2.55, and I believe that that issue comes down to the GUI thing.

Scripting is a damn feature of the program. It is 1000000x easier to add something as script-only than to add it to the gui. Scripts, can have script errors if you do something wrong or do a wrong value. In the same situation with a gui feature, it would likely just bug the crap out or crash and be on us to fix, not the user to fix the error in their scripts. Adding every damn thing to the engine is not simply possible. We add what we CAN. This is NOT a fucking simple codebase to work with, and expecting us to jump at all the things YOU want, when currently we have our main focus on trying to finish the main features on the todo list so we can fucking release 2.55 and move to the next build.
But when I am asked if something is possible to do, and it is possible with scripts, I'm going to reply with that type of answer. Scripting is a damn feature of the program, so the answer is "Yes, you can do this, here's how". If you take that as "This is never going to be able to be done any other way", then that's completely idiotic of you and putting words in my mouth. A simple question asked to me is all you needed.

This final sentence is correct in a specific sense, but for a lot of people something that is "via scripting" is not an option. They probably wouldn't know it was an option WITH scripting until they made a thread about it (like this one). That's my point. Most people look in the main documentation and ZQuest GUI for features. If it isn't visible there, they won't know it exists. And the issue that leads to is confusion about what ZC 2.55's features currently are or will finally be, and creating threads like this one because they didn't even know it was in ZScript yet. And the lack-of-bug-testers issue, but I covered that above.

This thread was made. I responded with how it was possible right now. Discussion of adding it to the gui later occurred (Though, could have been a lot more simple and civil). That's about what I'd expect (sans the ranting) to happen- they didn't know, so they ASKED.
If people are not willing/able to learn scripting, or to use script requests to get scripts written for them, then they simply are not able to use scripting features. Scripting is over half of this fucking program. If you are not going to use it, you ARE going to be missing out on a METRIC FUCKTON of features. That's just a fact of the fucking program, and that's not going to change. What features they miss out on will change- old script-only things will be brought into the engine (see sideview ladders), while there will be new features added that only work for scripts. That's how it fucking works.
 


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#13 Dimi

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 07:16 AM

No, I was saying you would turn down your music volume. Because it's music like any other music in the quest.

Yeah but volume is an argument passed into the midi function from what I recall; it shouldn't be too hard to just have an additional slider for game over music specifically. I might look into this later.
 

For EVERY one-line-of-script feature that does not have an equivalent in ZQuest's GUI, imagine at least 80% of people not even KNOWING they can use that feature, let alone the mental roadblock of looking in the big scary scripting manual for it. 1.92 and 2.50 had BOATLOADS of new features that did not require ZScript, and people are not used to looking in the ZScript manual for simple feature toggles such as this. You, Timelord, DImi, etc. are programmers, so you're very comfortable with TYPING to customize your quest instead of CLICKING. You guys are absolutely fine with looking in scripting documentation for the new features that you can use. However, you're not like most of ZC's AUDIENCE - the people you are making these features to be used by. For every script-only feature like this, people will make threads like this left and right. How are you going to stop that? You can't - unless you give the new feature to most of the audience in the format that they want it in.

 

IF IT IS NOT IN ZQUEST MOST PEOPLE WILL NOT KNOW IT IS A FEATURE.

Hey, don't you work closely with the devs? Maybe you could help document stuff by asking them and writing it up; you clearly have a lot of free time on your hands. It'd be a great help, we could focus on adding features without having to waste time documenting!


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#14 Jenny

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 06:04 PM

Hey, don't you work closely with the devs? Maybe you could help document stuff by asking them and writing it up; you clearly have a lot of free time on your hands. It'd be a great help, we could focus on adding features without having to waste time documenting!

I'm not certain insinuating that he has nothing better to do is the best way to encourage him to help.  :P

 

Besides, he IS already helping Zoria by contributing to the Link to the Past tileset as mentioned elsewhere, so its not like he's doing nothing.


Edited by Jenny, 09 June 2021 - 06:04 PM.

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#15 Dimi

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 09:33 PM

I'm not certain insinuating that he has nothing better to do is the best way to encourage him to help.  :P

 

Besides, he IS already helping Zoria by contributing to the Link to the Past tileset as mentioned elsewhere, so its not like he's doing nothing.

Yes, but yelling at the devs is the best way to demotivate them and make them not want to do something. Consider that the entire dev team is basically autistic at this point (or eccentric, in Zoria's case); of course there's gonna be communication slipups. Yelling at them is like the worst way to accomplish something, it just means they feel like shit (or in Zoria's case, proceeds to not give a shit and goes "fuck this") and nothing gets done.

There's a difference between calmly pointing out flaws and outright screeching at the offender and making them feel bad; the latter will eventually make them quit and nothing will get done ever.


Anyways, back on topic: I'm gonna try and implement this when I have a free moment and I feel motivated. Shouldn't be too hard; if it is I'll let you know here.


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