Jump to content

Photo

Are Zelda games improved by gimmicks?


  • Please log in to reply
14 replies to this topic

#1 Moosh

Moosh

    Tiny Little Questmaker

  • ZC Developers

Posted 19 February 2019 - 04:32 AM

A thought that tends to pop into my head from time to time is how quests and official Zelda games tend to differ in feel. Not just in the writing style, game design, and system limitations of ZC but some other "Zelda-ness". There's something unique about Zelda games, not even something I necessarily like them for, but it's something that's always been there past the first few and I think a big part of it is this: Zelda games love their central gimmicks.

 

More than just having one unifying mechanic, Zelda games like to be very bold and unsubtle with what they're about. You don't usually have to look past the title and cover art to find it. You see The Wind Waker, that's an item in the game. There's a boat front and center on the cover and behind the title. This is a Zelda game where you sail about and control the wind. Many of the games will do this kind of thing, having one of the game's items be the subtitle. Like Minish Cap, Phantom Hourglass, or The Lampshade of No Real Significance  :P. Zelda games' covers, I feel more than most, are recognizable and grab your attention, and the first thing they pull that attention to is the central gimmick. I find these gimmicks tend to fall into three main categories:

 

Glorified Keys:

This would be your Ocarina of Times, your Minish Caps, arguably the Oracles at some points, items that might be cool but mostly involve situations with two states. You see it, you use the thing, and you move on. In a looser sense, you could also consider the Phantom Hourglass a glorified key since it mostly just gives you more time to solve the puzzles in the Temple of the Ocean King.

 

Exploration:

This is probably the most broad and common category. It could probably do to be split up further, but this would be stuff that changes how you explore the world. Transportation methods would fall into this, cases like ALBW or BotW where it's a small change to Link's core moveset, or even two state stuff like in ALttP/the Oracles. These tend to be the most interesting IMO, but there's also that one time they turned the exploration into actual railroading. Heh.

 

Weird Mishmashes:

I'd put this as a category for the leftovers where there's a core element in the game but what it does feels less cohesive. Stuff like Fi's various abilities in Skyward Sword or Wolf Link in Twilight Princess. I'd also maybe put Majora's Mask's transformations in here even though that game feels far more intentional.

 

There's a bit of overlap, and this is hardly a professional, well thought out analysis or anything. What I'm wondering is do you guys think this central gimmick trend is something worth attempting in quests and other fan games? Is there something special to what these games are doing that makes them more memorable or is it just another Nintendo-ism, throwing ideas at the wall until something sticks? Are there new unique angles ZC could bring to the table? Maybe someone could make Zelda Teaches Typing in 2.55. :P

 

That last idea. That one's a winner.


  • SkyLizardGirl likes this

#2 Shane

Shane

    💙

  • Moderators
  • Pronouns:He / Him
  • Location:South Australia

Posted 19 February 2019 - 05:39 AM

I think it's just Nintendo's way of reinventing ways to play the Zelda formula. It's a thing they do with their consoles, and other games. It's why things like the F-Zero series won't just get another title unless there's something new about it (according to Miyamoto anyway). It adds a bonus to make interesting stories and worlds like Majora's Mask or Wind Waker, where the games are about masks/transformations and ocean sailing respectively so personally I welcome it.

 

I feel in cases like the DS Zelda games and Skyward Sword the console itself defined a lot of the mechanics inside those games. Even the Phantom Hourglass is tied into this with the finale. It can be argued these are the examples where central gimmicks went too far, overshadowing everything else of quality.

 

Do Zelda games really need these? Most cases probably not, I think a Zelda game would probably do just fine without a central gimmick. Link's Awakening is an example of a Zelda game without a central gimmick. It's almost like a typical modern quest where you go from dungeon to dungeon and unfold a story. And with its remake, time will tell if its lack of central gimmick will be noticeable to critical reviewers. But it brings me to my other point: I think quests can do just fine without a central gimmick. Like Link's Awakening, you can focus on a great and unique story. Or maybe a new style of gameplay like how Hyrule Warriors was tackled. ZC quests don't need to be like the official modern games, but I can see the appeal in having central gimmicks as I like to have them in my projects most of the time. It can bring focus and creatively challenge you to come up with ways to expand it and make a world and even a story around it. I think ZC quests shouldn't stick to a single way like Nintendo is doing, I love playing quests most of the time because they are not like official Zelda games.

 

So I'd say a central mechanic at the very least varies the gameplay, and gives each title its own identity.



#3 Architect Abdiel

Architect Abdiel

    Kingdom Builder

  • Members
  • Real Name:Michael
  • Location:Florida

Posted 19 February 2019 - 08:33 AM

I'd have another category which is that certain Zelda games have a central story focus.

 

 

Things like Legend of Zelda, Link's Awakening and the Oracles fall under things. Since the Oracles are about the oracles, and not the items.

 

Otherwise it would be Harp of Ages and Rod of Seasons.

 

 

I've been trying to come up with Zelda ideas that more revolve around naming it after something like an item.

 

It's quite difficult to do tbh.

 

 

I think the bigger thing is just the limitation of screen size such. It's hard to make a decent room that doesn't feel cramped when dealing with the screen size in ZC.

It's also difficult to make a central gimmick for dungeons when coming up with new ideas usually involves making some kind of script.



#4 Moosh

Moosh

    Tiny Little Questmaker

  • ZC Developers

Posted 19 February 2019 - 11:53 AM

Yeah, Link's awakening was the big one where I couldn't pin it down into a category, just like the first two games. I guess it's no coincidence that the two Zelda games ZC draws features from are Zelda 1 and LA.

 

The DS games are another interesting case where the controls were more the gimmick than what's featured on the box. I guess the Zelda logo with a big ol' DS stylus slicing through it like a sword just wouldn't excite people :P. Funny enough those games do feature one of my favorite gimmicks in the form of drawing on the map. Shame the controls were janky and map design was somewhat unmemorable.



#5 Avaro

Avaro

    o_o

  • Members
  • Real Name:Robin
  • Location:Germany

Posted 19 February 2019 - 03:23 PM

I guess it improves the games by giving them a memorable identity. But it doesn't always actually improve them.

 

Still, if I were to make a quest aiming to be like a real Zelda game I'd wanna use a central gimmick.


  • SkyLizardGirl likes this

#6 SkyLizardGirl

SkyLizardGirl

    Unbeknownst to danger we call upon your help

  • Banned
  • Real Name:Arianna Crystal Ritter
  • Location:Earthia

Posted 19 February 2019 - 03:32 PM

Yes, it works.*  It works because if you are Looking to call a new game something or have a certain idea, it's best limiting down

to an item or gimmick title just so you can build off of that entirely.

 

I noticed that about all Zelda games.

 

The Legend Of Zelda - Adventure Of Link  - You are simply going on a great adventure

 

The Legend Of Zelda - A Link To The Past  -The game, It's Supposed to be Hyrule in the Past but of course the Darkworld Lightworld thing, Maybe that game should have been Called a Link Between Worlds from the beginning.

And link between worlds,  >  The Legend Of Zelda - Dimension Painting - or etc, something lol.

 

Legend of Zelda - Orcarina of Time - is just what the Game uses in the story and adventure etc.

 

(It's as if you are Naming Star-Wars Movies - Like   Episode XIII   Mask of the Sith - etc lol.)


Edited by SkyLizardGirl, 19 February 2019 - 03:32 PM.


#7 Norzan

Norzan

    Adept

  • Members

Posted 19 February 2019 - 09:52 PM

I'm fine with or without a gimmick. As long the game is well designed and fun to play, i'm cool. I do like a well thought out gimmick, it can enhance the experience and give the game an unique identity.


  • Daniel and SkyLizardGirl like this

#8 SkyLizardGirl

SkyLizardGirl

    Unbeknownst to danger we call upon your help

  • Banned
  • Real Name:Arianna Crystal Ritter
  • Location:Earthia

Posted 19 February 2019 - 11:08 PM

However, .. if you are making like a Joke quest,  the Title could actually have nothing to do with

the quest itself.



#9 Timelord

Timelord

    The Timelord

  • Banned
  • Location:Prydon Academy

Posted 20 February 2019 - 02:47 AM

Everyone needs....


Gimmick_boxart.PNG



Honestly, I think that the revoving central motif in the Zelda game series exists because the story/plot of almost every game is the same: Green-clad elf gets magical sword and rescues princess from demon king.

Without a new central game device, this would be extremely evident.

LA is a good example of when a Zelda game didn't need a supporting gimmick, because it had a unique plot. If you are reshahing, add a new twist or game object with which the kids will amuse themselves.

If you have a new story, you can get away with very similar gamepay / only minor additions.

#10 klop422

klop422

    Guess I'm full of monsters and treasure

  • Members
  • Real Name:Not George
  • Location:Planet Earth

Posted 20 February 2019 - 05:17 AM

Everyone needs....


Gimmick_boxart.PNG

That one has a great soundtrack.

 

On-topic, I can only give the cop-out answer of "if it's done right".

As far as I can tell, except for Majora's Mask (limited real-time and time travel), and arguably Twilight Princess, I don't think the gimmicks had a lot of impact on the gameplay.

OoT used the ocarina a bunch, but all of it could have been done with different items; in essence, the ocarina is just a bunch of separate mechanics and items thrown into one. Same for the Wind Waker. Although the latter there also has the gimmick of sea travel.

That said. OoT's ocarina introduced the mechanic of musical instruments in the games (or at least codified it, since all the games until that point had some kind of instrument), which I have started to get tired of. Especially in Skyward Sword, where you do no work, and Spirit Tracks, which has such a low bar for success, as a musician myself, either makes me laugh, or hurts me physically, depending on my mood.

In any case, I don't particularly care about gimmicks either way. I like the gimmicks if done right, and don't if they're not. But I don't think any of the Zelda games have done their gimmicks badly. Even the DS games work well for me. Sure, some things in PH were improved in ST (Temple of the Ocean King especially, as well as inter-city/island travel), but I think all the games hold up to some extent, gimmick or none.



#11 SkyLizardGirl

SkyLizardGirl

    Unbeknownst to danger we call upon your help

  • Banned
  • Real Name:Arianna Crystal Ritter
  • Location:Earthia

Posted 20 February 2019 - 11:09 PM

A Zelda game that's more about Saving a-lot more than just a Princess from a Beast-Pig -Man thing' is

Always a good thing for a motivation. And even the Triforce being replaced by something else such as Instruments or etc

is always a good thing too, some type of magical something is always good to collect and advance the game, even if it's a Dungeon solving tool or Key.

 

I will make a statement however about Zelda Games like Minish cap with Less than 5 Dungeons or Games Like Adventure of Link which only have 6 dungeons.

 

(Don't Make a Game with less than 8 or 7 dungeons.)  - Cause It makes your game Smaller than Link's Awakening and that's a tiny game.



#12 Shane

Shane

    💙

  • Moderators
  • Pronouns:He / Him
  • Location:South Australia

Posted 20 February 2019 - 11:43 PM

Small Zelda games work, look at Majora's Mask which had 4 dungeons and is regarded as one of the best Zelda games. Also I personally prefer bite-sized fan games over lengthy ones. :P



#13 Anthus

Anthus

    Lord of Liquids

  • Members
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 21 February 2019 - 12:45 AM

Are Zelda games improved by gimmicks? Short answer: Sometimes.

 

Gimmicks in Zelda have an interesting history imo. When did they start? What counts as a gimmick? Once we knew what a 'gimmick' was, how did that effect how we look at other Zelda games? Certain gimmicks, for me at least, like stylus controls, and constant motion controls can ruin an otherwise decent game. But some people love that stuff, so I feel like there is no real answer, cause everyone has different tastes, and the Zelda fan base is so huge that you won't get a straight answer. I think Zelda games can be improved by gimmicks, as long as the gimmick is fun for me, and compliments what I already like about Zelda.

 

The season changing gimmick in OoS, time travel in OoT, mask transformations in MM, and dual worlds in LttP are among my favorite gimmicks. These concepts make each game unique, and also add something to the game that is fun to use, and play with, imo. These are all basically extensions of Link's abilities, or ways to alter exploration, and that's what I love most about Zelda personally. Exploring areas, and getting stronger/ gaining abilities. ALBW gets points here too, for doing all of this perfectly. But ALBW's other gimmick of all dungeons being the same difficulty, and not finding unique items within was kind of a drag, but I understand the trade off and still love it.

 

Gimmicks I kind of like, but feel could be improved include WW's sailing, TP's wolf Link, and OoA's time travel. All of these gimmicks have moments where they can shine, and be fun. I love the idea of sailing an open sea, but.. actually doing it is kind of boring at times. Turning into a wolf, and fighting unique enemies, and having it affect NPCs is a great touch. But making wolf Link have the most basic combat, with zero upgrades isn't. OoT used time travel effectively to tell a story, and link two worlds. OoA just has this confusing mess of warps between times, and I have no idea where I'm going half the time. The other half of the time, I'm generally enjoying these two times effecting each other, and seeing my actions effect stuff in game.

 

Games "without gimmicks" would probably include the NES games, and LA. But I still say that in hindsight, these all have a gimmick. Z1 has battery-backed saves, Z2 is a side scroller with those gimmicky 80's lives, and LA is like Z3 but also like Z1, but has nothing to do with the main Zelda lore up to that point. EDIT: I knew I was forgetting something. I'd also say BotW is another "gimmickless gimmick" Zelda game. It's.. uh, it's just BotW, you know what I mean.

 

Basically, whether or not a gimmick makes a Zelda game better comes down to what the gimmick is, and how it is used. So, long answer; sometimes. :P



#14 Nicholas Steel

Nicholas Steel

    Hero of Time

  • Members
  • Location:Australia

Posted 22 February 2019 - 03:22 AM

Most of Twilight Princess's item & ability unlocks are Glorified Keys.


Edited by Nicholas Steel, 23 February 2019 - 03:11 AM.


#15 SkyLizardGirl

SkyLizardGirl

    Unbeknownst to danger we call upon your help

  • Banned
  • Real Name:Arianna Crystal Ritter
  • Location:Earthia

Posted 22 February 2019 - 03:33 AM

Small Zelda games work, look at Majora's Mask which had 4 dungeons and is regarded as one of the best Zelda games. Also I personally prefer bite-sized fan games over lengthy ones. :P

 

It has 4 Overly difficult Dungeons - Plus you had the Heart attack of time running out and your dungeon progress always being reset.

 

Well, sure.. it works if you make 4 Really hard long dungeons plus stress the player with a doomsday Time limit.

 

I could argue just making a Zelda game with only 1 dungeon and making it nearly impossible and calling that

a completed Zelda game title.


Edited by SkyLizardGirl, 22 February 2019 - 03:34 AM.



1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users