87 replies to this topic

[Radien]

Linkus, do you have an answer regarding the issue of big character sprites? You may think that a lot of DoR's objects aren't scaled for smaller character sprites, but the tileset isn't really designed for big sprites, either.

[Linkus]

Oh, yeah - I've got a few tiles that can fix a few size issues. Mostly aesthetic stuff, like barrels and boxes, but not all of it. Otherwise, whatever what's left and use the GB sizing, there should already be a larger version for it, such as the stairs, rocks, and the like. Half of the stuff was already made for 32x32 Link, was it not?

[SpacemanDan]

Made some changes. Now, it should only use 1 cset, and I simplified the dress a little.

[Radien]

Oh, yeah - I've got a few tiles that can fix a few size issues. Mostly aesthetic stuff, like barrels and boxes, but not all of it. Otherwise, whatever what's left and use the GB sizing, there should already be a larger version for it, such as the stairs, rocks, and the like. Half of the stuff was already made for 32x32 Link, was it not?

There's nothing difficult about finding large environment sprites...however, there's plenty difficult about converting an entire quest to large character sprites.

Let me put this another way, Linkus: I don't WANT to implement large NPCs and Link tiles in my quest, and I think you'll find most other ZQuesters will say the same thing once they find out what's required, even if they've been craving larger sprites for awhile. It's more trouble than it's worth, and even if NPCs were extended to more than one tile to keep from feeling cramped, they don't necessarily have to be 30+ pixels tall. You'll also notice that extended Link will clip every tree and other layer 3 graphic designed for 16x16 Link until the tileset has been altered.

Besides implementation, I have other complaints about tall sprites. First of all, there's no way to have tall enemies without employing a script, so making all the characters bigger looks awkward. Secondly, even with LTTP/MC dungeons, you'll notice that extended Link tiles still clip quite badly on the west and east dungeon passages, even in the original games. The scale may fit larger sprites, but the perspective doesn't.

I hate to be so blunt about it, but if you make big sprites, everybody is going to say "OOH PRETTY" and rate it a 5, but only a very small handful of those people are actually going to use them. If you just want kudos for drawing well, you will definitely get it.... but you're trying to make something useful to the ZC community, you should take what I've said into account. Even including small versions of the sprites on the side (16 to 20 pixels tall) would be incredibly useful.

[Linkus]

Well, to put it, most don't need to be altered that much. most are actually fine in their current size, such as octoroks and leevers - they are meant to be small, so they don't require too much of a change. Others just need to be re-sized a bit, such as the tektite and the legs; but there should be a script that works on making enemies larger. But, others do suffer - Moblins come to mind, but with the MC rips, it should work.

Large bosses, such as Dodongos, can work as they are designed. While not full-sized Dodongos, child-sized would work perfectly instead. Gleeoks should also be fine, they're just smaller to the eye. In fact, a lot of bosses that are smaller when compared to Link should be okay, give or take their compared size.

Although, I may work on a 4x4 Aquamentus or a 4x4 Digdogger. Sure, they may be large in size, but they still act and work the same way.

[Zenith]

Even including small versions of the sprites on the side (16 to 20 pixels tall) would be incredibly useful.

^This. Would really be gold to have some better looking 1x1 or 1x1.25 tile sprites to use.

Edited by Zenith, 17 February 2009 - 10:41 PM.

[Radien]

Well, to put it, most don't need to be altered that much. most are actually fine in their current size, such as octoroks and leevers - they are meant to be small, so they don't require too much of a change. Others just need to be re-sized a bit, such as the tektite and the legs; but there should be a script that works on making enemies larger. But, others do suffer - Moblins come to mind, but with the MC rips, it should work.

Large bosses, such as Dodongos, can work as they are designed. While not full-sized Dodongos, child-sized would work perfectly instead. Gleeoks should also be fine, they're just smaller to the eye. In fact, a lot of bosses that are smaller when compared to Link should be okay, give or take their compared size.

Although, I may work on a 4x4 Aquamentus or a 4x4 Digdogger. Sure, they may be large in size, but they still act and work the same way.

I don't have any concern about bosses, or anything bigger than 16x16. And yes, some enemies are fine at the small size. It's mostly the human-sized ones that would not look right. Just for the sake of argument, let's see what would be needed:

Darknuts, Gibdo, Goriyas, Like Like (?), Moblins, Stalfos, Vires (?), Wizzrobes (x7 types). From what I've found, those are the enemies that would need to be changed. ?'s next to the questionable ones. Wizzrobes are notable because palette-swapping the same sprites 7 times does NOT look good, especially since they do vastly different things, unlike Darknuts.

However, that is still a lot of sprites to update, and drawing larger enemies is not by far the only remaining problem. I'm not asking you to creating three times as many sprites just so we can use the ones you're working on now... I'm just suggesting that it'd be better to fill in the gaps of what's already out there before opening a whole new can of worms.

[Linkus]

You know what, you want your small sprites?

Here:



It's kept under 24 pixels. But seriously - It's time to have larger "common" sprites; if anything it's inevitable, and we are in a time where larger sprites are expected in any recent game. If you want to keep to the 16x16 size, fine - May perspective and size problems plague you.

And I know others will ask - No, I am not releasing a template for this resizing. It's just too small to determine height differences in people, which is another goal I'm aiming for (along with others).

[Russ]

I like the smaller one. She looks like she would easily fit into DoR.

[SpacemanDan]

I agree with Linkus here. Depicting height differences/age and many other aspects are just too difficult to do with only 16x16. Now, that's not such a problem for simple quests, but when it comes to bigger, more story driven quests with a wide cast of characters, it gets to be a pain to get the look you're going for. It's also really difficult to depict costumes and other details. (Emotion's another one I can list right now.)

I think it's a good idea to at least give the option. The developers put it there for a reason. Why not use it? Yes, while adjustments need to be made, that's the truth about a lot of things in life. If you want something to work, you have to make the changes so it will work. Besides, if the changes are THAT difficult to make custom, there is always ALttP and MC to get resources from.

Now, I'm not trying to say that 16x16 is bad, not by any means. I like small sprites, too, but I think it's a great idea to give people the option. Plus, small sprites are easier to make simply because of what I posted above: you don't have to worry about as much.

Anyways, that's my bit on it.

Edited by Blaman, 18 February 2009 - 08:01 PM.

[lucas92]

I agree with Linkus, 16x16 is just too small for npcs. But bigger Link tiles is a most... :S

[Radien]

Okay, Linkus, thank you for resizing that one. I'm sorry you're annoyed and you don't want to do it for the rest, but I don't mean to offend you. I have a few comparisons I'd like to make, to show why I think this way.

First of all, one thing that's been mentioned is the idea that DoR's sprites are too small for the environmental graphics of the set. While I agree that 16x16 for every humanoid sprite is unnatural to say the least, I don't think the existing scale contrasts with the environment by more than a few small pixels. See below: the overworld houses have doors that are only 20 pixels high, if you include the entire door frame.



The new girl, consequently, is taller than the door... of course, accounting for perspective we should only measure up to her forehead. But as a young girl, she probably wouldn't be among the tallest of NPCs. To be fair, though, LTTP doorways were not very tall to begin with. So perhaps it'd be better to compare with LTTP sprites.



Even so, the smaller version of the girl is still taller than LTTP Link, who stands just 22 pixels tall. Keep in mind that this is supposed to be a "big" Link.

My point here is that DoR's graphics are a mixture of elements from GB, BS, LTTP, and a little MC, so the existing NPCs aren't really THAT far off-scale, even if they're dated and need an upgrade. No, I don't think humanoid sprites should be 16x16. I think they should be more like 20-22 pixels tall to be optimal for DoR as it was released. But if anybody uses sprites bigger than 16x24 in DoR, it's because they want to, not because my tileset calls for it.



If Linkus only releases a big version of the NPCs, I will try to edit and resize them for a smaller version. However, I'm not as good at this sort of thing as Linkus, and it'll also probably take me longer. But I'll do it, because I'd like to see the tileset truly complete before it is once again upgraded and incomplete.

[Linkus]

Well, I now understand what you're saying, despite the screen you provided isn't that great of an example. But, it's not that much of a problem, you'll find that most NPCs are "taller" than the houses' walls - Even the archways are taller, but it works.

Also, while you compare the LttP Link sprite, try comparing my sprite with the MC Link - There's a big difference in size and style.

[Linkus]

Well, I've given some thought into the size. While I want a larger sprite, I did notice a few errors on my end - But the result is smaller though.

But, I'll let you decide what's best:



Normal - Fixed - Mini

Mini may be altered a bit more to become the child template, depending on what people say.

Also, for those who are working with the old template, you may want to rip the palette this picture is in. It's been updated - Noticing how it sticks out like a sore thumb in certain palettes (see Radien's pic for an example), it made me tweak the colors once more.

Edited by Linkus, 19 February 2009 - 08:00 PM.

[lucas92]

Second would be adult and third would be child version.