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ZC's future - the elephant in the room


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#16 Emily

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Posted 19 October 2019 - 01:31 PM

For my 'dream quest', which may or may never happen, it will almost certainly require scripting due to the huge ideas I have.

So, do keep in mind that feature requests are a thing. As I mentioned, sideview ladders are a major missing feature in 2.50.2, and they now exist in-engine as a FLAG you can just place down in 2.55. Feature requests DO help us know what to focus on adding.


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#17 Soma C.

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Posted 19 October 2019 - 01:41 PM

So, do keep in mind that feature requests are a thing. As I mentioned, sideview ladders are a major missing feature in 2.50.2, and they now exist in-engine as a FLAG you can just place down in 2.55. Feature requests DO help us know what to focus on adding.

I'll keep that in mind, thanks. To be brutally honest I haven't even barely touched ZQ in general, like at all.  I mainly just play/watch quests.  I also need to get back to school eventually before I croak so I don't know even if I can focus on a large-scale quest at this point.  But a smaller one, which wouldn't  take long to develop?  Sure. 



#18 NoeL

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Posted 19 October 2019 - 09:02 PM

I love this thread! I think everyone here has provided valid points and brought a lot of passion to their argument. I do think some people have misunderstood James's argument a bit though, pointing to quests like Lost Isle and saying "See? Quests without scripts can do well!" James is saying that quests made TODAY for TODAY's audience are likely to be overlooked if they're not script-heavy. And I almost agree with him - I just think his scope is too narrow.

What a quest needs to sell TODAY, to specifically the PUREZC community isn't "scripts", it's originality. Most people here have been around a while and played a lot of quests that all play very similarly. They're not going to be interested unless you're doing something different, and custom scripts is just one of many ways to make your quest stand out.

Another way - arguably a stronger way - is art. If your game LOOKS really good people will be interested. Strong aesthetics go a long way towards getting people to download your quest. You don't need custom tilesets, but you do need good screen(shot) design. All the top quests LOOK like they're worth checking out.

I also don't think forum representation is indicative of "sales". To use my own quest as an example, Linked Seasons only made a moderate splash in the community here: a handful of reviews and some good comments on the expo page, but no one really talks about it anymore and I'm not a super involved member of the community. But that quest currently has ~570 downloads, so clearly the "sales" reach of quests extends beyond the people here that talk about them. Not that 570 is anywhere close to the big name quests, but I think it's a good number for a quest with three reviews.

I actually agree with you that ZC has become overwhelming compared to say it's 1.90 days. There is definitely a place for limited creation kits (like 1.90 and Pico8) and I love the challenge of elegantly getting the most out of limited tools (why Revenge 2 will always be among my top quests, if not the top). If ZC never progressed beyond 1.90 I suspect we'd have a smaller enthusiast community producing more quests. In some ways this is better, but in other ways it's much worse. The fact that ZC grew in scope allowed people to do more things, keeping the community fresh and yes, alive (despite the commonly observed decline in forum activity).

For a newbie coming into ZC 1.90, the idea of creating the next Revenge 2 isn't as daunting as someone today creating the next <insert currently popular large-scale blockbuster quest>. But that doesn't mean modern zc is bad for the community, and I think everyone here has presented the evidence why.


Edited by NoeL, 20 October 2019 - 07:07 PM.

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#19 DarkFlameSheep

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Posted 19 October 2019 - 09:40 PM

NoeL, James praised Mike's Fun House, never Lost Isle. He dislikes and disrespects most quest as type A, of course LI, too. If he thinks MFH should be played more, he should make PV or playvideos like Lordkronos and I did.


Edited by Stray Sheep, 21 October 2019 - 09:07 PM.


#20 James24

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Posted 20 October 2019 - 01:14 AM

By your own statistics Shane, it shows that the number of quests being made per year since 2013 is on a steady decline.  I think 2013 was an exceptional year since it was just after 2.50 had been released and scripting was something novel that people wanted to try out.  It would be interesting to have a look at quests made in that year and see if those were "try-out" quests.
 
As for the quests you've mentioned, how can you verify whether or not the author really did or did not make scripts of their own?  Maybe the author painstakingly learned how to script on their own and made a script that, unknowningly to them, already existed on the database.  Truth is there's no way to know for sure except by relying on the word of the author.
 
Golvellius is a 2013 quest, ToTheTop is a 2014 quest.  Both of which should not be counted because scripting was relatively new then.  Judging by Yuurei, Aevin can script so why would you think that The Hero's Memory contains no scripts?  If an author can script they'd be crazy to deprive themselves of such a fantastic tool.  I only played a little bit of The Hero's Memory and stopped because it was too easy so I can't tell for sure whether not it really does have no scripts.  Lyrics of Death only has 4 good ratings from 463 downloads which is of a far lower proportion to the rest of the "sold" quests, The Remake I know for sure uses scripts whether or not Shoshon got them from the database I'm not so sure of.  Same for The Legend of Amy Rose 3 by eddy.  The Necklace of Adrian has too few downloads to have a comparable sample size.  Nostrarul isn't a complete quest so it shouldn't be considered.
 
This brings me to another point brought up by a fair few - taking a public pre-made script or asking someone else to write the script for you and then putting it into your quest is, from my experience, undesirable.  First, there's plenty of scripts so you'd have to know your way around the script database and you don't even know if what you require even exists at all.  You could be going on a wild-goose chase.  Second of all there's the whole process of figuring out how to integrate your script into the quest using the ffc things.  Might be trivial for a seasoned scripter but its a nightmare for a beginner.  Third, you always worry about whether its going to work correctly in your quest.  If it doesn't, maybe its your fault or maybe its the scripts fault - you don't know.  If its the script's fault then you're going to have to ask people to re-write the script for you.  Finally, what happens if you want to make small tweaks and adjustments to the script because it just isn't right?  Once again you're going to be dependent on whether or not other people like you and if they support your work.  I can't imagine anyone writing scripts for my Insanity Unchained simply because they know that their hard work and effort will all be for zero since they won't enjoy the final work.  How am I supposed to go around asking people for help in such a situation?  I've got strong hunch I'm not the only one who feels uncomfortable with such a situation but also many novice want-to-be quest makers.
 
Compare this to the early days without scripting and having everything done for you in ZC.  You simply go into the ZC editor, press a few buttons to make the screens that you want another few buttons to put the enemies you want on screen and Bob's you're Uncle.  Easy, simple and you don't need anyone else, you don't even need to look up how do any stuff on the interenet.  That sells.  ZC would sell a lot more and a lot more quests would be made if people could download ZC and make their dream quest offline all by themselves without needing to ever have to go on the Internet ever again except when they finish and want to put it on the database.  I play a lot of quests by very strange and unknown authors and it never ceases to amaze me that only the features that come with ZC get used.
 
Finally Shane, its no secret that you've cancelled several of quests throughout your time here.  In fact, you haven't produced any solo quest of your own.  Why is that?  Perhaps you find it too tedious to learn how to script and that the 6 month barrier is too much for you.  In that case, you should be avidly supporting me.  Avataro on the other hand has numerous quests in the database all well-scripted and all well polished.  You even said it yourself that he wrote the scripts.  It would make logical sense to conclude that you design the levels and he does the scripting.  It works since your levels will sell well to the modern Nintendo Zelda Type A audience since you yourself are of that demographic.  I'm not saying this is such a bad thing - Lost Isle got built with DarkFlameWolf in charge "controlling" Peteo.
 
 
Rob - If Phantom Menace had asked users to script back in the day I don't think Zelda Classic would have taken off.  Right now ZC is asking users to script most of what they want only the core Z1 NES features plus some additional items and micellaneous features are available in ZC.  And you're correct in your calculation that it would take you nigh on forever to make what Phantom Menace did back in the day.  I'm not asking you or any other dev to make that kind of sacrifice - its asking too much.  I only ask that you simply that you accept ZC's fate.  It's had a good life but its 20 years old and you know, all things die.  Every game dies.  Such is the way of things, what's important is that we celebrate what it achieved during its life.
 
This situation isn't your fault.  The reality is that all your predecessors should have been adding popular things to the main ZC engine instead of just putting on the scripting band-aid solution, kicking the can down the road and letting the quest-makers do it via scripts and the pre-made script database if they don't know how to script.  Right now, there's too much work for you to do and you have every right to say "its too much for me".  Maybe after 20 years its time that the ZC engine got re-written for all you know??
 
You once again bring up the point that there is a scripting database that is similar to the graphics and music database so therefore there should be no difference.  I disagree.  Graphics and music are a lot easier to integrate into your quest.  Anyone can judge a "good" tileset by looking at it.  Anyone can judge "good" music by searching for something they are familiar with or by listening to the melody.  But its A LOT harder to judge whether someone else's script is good by just looking at it especially if can't script yourself.  How do you know if their code is what you intended to have happen in your quest?  How do you know if their code will actually work or that its complete garbage leading you on a wild goose-chase?  You don't know and you simply have to trust them and if it doesn't work well then how do you whose fault it is?  If you criticize them and they find out its your fault then you'll be laughed at.
 
Of course you can do plenty without scripting, but it appears to me that most people want their game to sell.  Me being the obvious exception.  Why are you selling if the buyer isn't paying is my motto.  And when I predict these doom and gloom scenarios about their work not selling I never hear the end of it even if I'm 100% correct.  Selling their game is infinitely more likely to occur with scripting than without - just look at those flagship quests I've pointed out. I also agree that if you scripting alone does not make a good quest.  But scripting is an essential element to a good quest - if that makes sense to you.
 
I spout doomsday not because I'm trying to hurt you or belittle Zelda Classic.  Its because I don't want to raise your hopes and then have them deflated when you finally realize that the game won't sell.  I would be plesantly surprised if I was wrong on my prediction.  But if I got my predictions wrong like this in the sales business I'd be homeless right now.  When I said to Yloh in May 2018 that his Fun House wouldn't sell he accepted that truth but he chose not to act because to act would blow out the time-budget he had allocated for finishing his quest.  And now that his quest is out and it didn't sell I think he's all the better for it.  I'll leave you with a quote from my favourite Star Wars Novel - Revenge of the Sith by Matthew Stover.
 
"A moment of pure clarity came when Yoda found himself alone against the shadow that was Emperor Palpatine.  In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.  Finally he saw the truth.  The truth: that he, the avatar of the light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the dark side had ever known...just...didn't...have it.  He never had it, he had lost before he started.   He had lost before he was born"
 
I know there are many other posts I've read but this is taking too long and I can't answer everyone.  If I haven't answered some burning question please repeat it.


#21 Emily

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Posted 20 October 2019 - 01:43 AM

Rob - If Phantom Menace had asked users to script back in the day I don't think Zelda Classic would have taken off.  Right now ZC is asking users to script most of what they want only the core Z1 NES features plus some additional items and micellaneous features are available in ZC.  And you're correct in your calculation that it would take you nigh on forever to make what Phantom Menace did back in the day.  I'm not asking you or any other dev to make that kind of sacrifice - its asking too much.  I only ask that you simply that you accept ZC's fate.  It's had a good life but its 20 years old and you know, all things die.  Every game dies.  Such is the way of things, what's important is that we celebrate what it achieved during its life.

This situation isn't your fault.  The reality is that all your predecessors should have been adding popular things to the main ZC engine instead of just putting on the scripting band-aid solution, kicking the can down the road and letting the quest-makers do it via scripts and the pre-made script database if they don't know how to script.  Right now, there's too much work for you to do and you have every right to say "its too much for me".  Maybe after 20 years its time that the ZC engine got re-written for all you know??

K, I did the kind post. Now for the letting out how I really feel post.

DISCLAIMER: This is my personal opinion, and is in no way representative of the dev team's opinion as a whole, and is in no official capacity.

 

RANT

Whew. K, I'm done now.

 


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#22 Shane

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Posted 20 October 2019 - 01:51 AM

By your own statistics Shane, it shows that the number of quests being made per year since 2013 is on a steady decline.  I think 2013 was an exceptional year since it was just after 2.50 had been released and scripting was something novel that people wanted to try out.  It would be interesting to have a look at quests made in that year and see if those were "try-out" quests.

 
As for the quests you've mentioned, how can you verify whether or not the author really did or did not make scripts of their own?  Maybe the author painstakingly learned how to script on their own and made a script that, unknowningly to them, already existed on the database.  Truth is there's no way to know for sure except by relying on the word of the author.
 
Golvellius is a 2013 quest, ToTheTop is a 2014 quest.  Both of which should not be counted because scripting was relatively new then.  Judging by Yuurei, Aevin can script so why would you think that The Hero's Memory contains no scripts?  If an author can script they'd be crazy to deprive themselves of such a fantastic tool.  I only played a little bit of The Hero's Memory and stopped because it was too easy so I can't tell for sure whether not it really does have no scripts.  Lyrics of Death only has 4 good ratings from 463 downloads which is of a far lower proportion to the rest of the "sold" quests, The Remake I know for sure uses scripts whether or not Shoshon got them from the database I'm not so sure of.  Same for The Legend of Amy Rose 3 by eddy.  The Necklace of Adrian has too few downloads to have a comparable sample size.  Nostrarul isn't a complete quest so it shouldn't be considered.
 
This brings me to another point brought up by a fair few - taking a public pre-made script or asking someone else to write the script for you and then putting it into your quest is, from my experience, undesirable.  First, there's plenty of scripts so you'd have to know your way around the script database and you don't even know if what you require even exists at all.  You could be going on a wild-goose chase.  Second of all there's the whole process of figuring out how to integrate your script into the quest using the ffc things.  Might be trivial for a seasoned scripter but its a nightmare for a beginner.  Third, you always worry about whether its going to work correctly in your quest.  If it doesn't, maybe its your fault or maybe its the scripts fault - you don't know.  If its the script's fault then you're going to have to ask people to re-write the script for you.  Finally, what happens if you want to make small tweaks and adjustments to the script because it just isn't right?  Once again you're going to be dependent on whether or not other people like you and if they support your work.  I can't imagine anyone writing scripts for my Insanity Unchained simply because they know that their hard work and effort will all be for zero since they won't enjoy the final work.  How am I supposed to go around asking people for help in such a situation?  I've got strong hunch I'm not the only one who feels uncomfortable with such a situation but also many novice want-to-be quest makers.
 
Compare this to the early days without scripting and having everything done for you in ZC.  You simply go into the ZC editor, press a few buttons to make the screens that you want another few buttons to put the enemies you want on screen and Bob's you're Uncle.  Easy, simple and you don't need anyone else, you don't even need to look up how do any stuff on the interenet.  That sells.  ZC would sell a lot more and a lot more quests would be made if people could download ZC and make their dream quest offline all by themselves without needing to ever have to go on the Internet ever again except when they finish and want to put it on the database.  I play a lot of quests by very strange and unknown authors and it never ceases to amaze me that only the features that come with ZC get used.
 
Finally Shane, its no secret that you've cancelled several of quests throughout your time here.  In fact, you haven't produced any solo quest of your own.  Why is that?  Perhaps you find it too tedious to learn how to script and that the 6 month barrier is too much for you.  In that case, you should be avidly supporting me.  Avataro on the other hand has numerous quests in the database all well-scripted and all well polished.  You even said it yourself that he wrote the scripts.  It would make logical sense to conclude that you design the levels and he does the scripting.  It works since your levels will sell well to the modern Nintendo Zelda Type A audience since you yourself are of that demographic.  I'm not saying this is such a bad thing - Lost Isle got built with DarkFlameWolf in charge "controlling" Peteo.

 

How do I know? Because I've tested and helped with a lot of those quests I listed and I'm friends with most of these creators, knowing their skill sets personally. If you're going to make the claim that Zelda Classic is dying, and be persistent on it, you better be doing your research, which you haven't. Second Chance, the remake of Lyrics of Death and Necklace of Adrian use the Vintage Dreams tileset which comes packed with scripts ready for anyone to use. I cited Necklace of Adrian because it was an extension of Second Chance. Nostalrul is a complete quest, you're mistaken for the remake. So don't tell me that I don't know the truth of the matter, because I do. The quests that were cited are legit evidence against your claims that only scripted quests can sell. The Legend of Amy Rose 3 had one of the biggest anticipations of all PureZC history, even if it was a bit of a community meme. To go further with debunking your claims that scripted quests are more sellable, some people have expressed preference to The Hero's Memory over Aevin's Hitodama and Yuurei quests. And while I shifted my preference to Yuurei, I was a huge preferer of Hero's Memory and was sceptical of Hitodama. I still am a huge fan of Hero's Memory and is one of my favourite quests. And I know it's others too.

 

A lot of people are clearly content with adding scripts into their own quests, granted some need guidance and assistance, but not enough for them to lose interest. Some of the quests I listed clearly prove this, and seeing as you are going to just assume things... I think it's clear to say your case on the matter is fragile at best, using your own personal bias and experience with scripting.

 

Okay, but why wasn't every quest the next big thing back then? Clearly NoeL said it best: Originality sells. This is why quests like Hero of Dreams and Lost Isle stood out. Basic Z1 clones were never going to sell in the future, with or without scripting. You had to stand out from the crowd, by either really competent design or originality. Some big hits didn't have the most competent design, but had originality. That's why hits like Mega Man aged poorly. The community was learning, adapting, much like how the game industry does.

 

Lastly, there are several reasons why I cancelled quests. I was in school for most of my projects, so schoolwork and teenage social life were my primary focuses. I had episodes of depression which hurt my motivation and confidence in my projects. I work better with a team in general, I feel more confident when I get active feedback. There is some truth that scripting was a hurdle for me, but it was never the thing that killed my projects.

 

Also why do you keep insisting I'm just a "modern" Zelda fan? I liked Z1, it just wasn't the best. I liked what some ZC quests did with the Z1 formula and gameplay. Just had to debunk that, because it's stupid.


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#23 Haylee

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Posted 20 October 2019 - 02:05 AM

Truth is there's no way to know for sure except by relying on the word of the author.

This is misinformation. There have been ways in the past to crack into passworded quests in the past(See: ZeldaShark when that was still a thing). I assume ZC Devs could probably crack into quests themselves as well. If you think we only have to rely on word of mouth, then you're clearly not as in the know about the community as you think you are.

Judging by Yuurei, Aevin can script so why would you think that The Hero's Memory contains no scripts? If an author can script they'd be crazy to deprive themselves of such a fantastic tool.

This is just an objectively bad statement. You're acting like just because he can script well NOW means he could script when he was just starting.

And lastly:

Nostrarul isn't a complete quest so it shouldn't be considered.

I'm going to give you the benefit of a doubt and assume you're talking about the remake I'm making, and not the original quest that I uploaded years ago.

If you ARE talking about the original though, you have no idea how incredibly rude it is for someone to look at your work and call it incomplete. Piss off with that.

Putting this as kindly as possible, I have no idea how someone can be this out of touch and jaded. Here's some friendly advice: how about instead of assuming what the PureZC community wants based on your clearly limited experience here(Despite all the years you've had here, somehow.), actually judge it based on what the community actually does. I don't see you on the discord at all, which is where the bulk of the community is, so I don't see how you can act like you know how this community functions when you don't know anything about it.
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#24 DarkFlameSheep

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Posted 20 October 2019 - 06:24 AM

 

James doesn't seem a good salesman for MFH, so I show one of my favorites in MFH.

 

I believe using script things or not don't affect decisively for quality of quest. And I feel strongly C-Dawg, DFW, Peteo, CastChaos, Shoelace, Aevin, Russ, Yloh and more creators learn(ed) tons of things from great official games and great ZC quests.


Edited by Stray Sheep, 21 October 2019 - 09:07 PM.

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#25 klop422

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Posted 20 October 2019 - 08:29 AM

This is just an objectively bad statement. You're acting like just because he can script well NOW means he could script when he was just starting.

To add on to this, it's a thing in literally every creative endeavour to try and do things while setting your own constraints. Even if Aevin could script while he made Hero's Memory, why would you assume he'd do it? There's a lack of logic there.

And even if you're not convinced by logic, you can just freaking check the quest to see if there are scripts. I've been told devs can trivially enter passworded quests, so that's not an issue at all. Empirical evidence trumps all logic and all theories.

 

This brings me to another point brought up by a fair few - taking a public pre-made script or asking someone else to write the script for you and then putting it into your quest is, from my experience, undesirable.  First, there's plenty of scripts so you'd have to know your way around the script database and you don't even know if what you require even exists at all.  You could be going on a wild-goose chase.  Second of all there's the whole process of figuring out how to integrate your script into the quest using the ffc things.  Might be trivial for a seasoned scripter but its a nightmare for a beginner.  Third, you always worry about whether its going to work correctly in your quest.  If it doesn't, maybe its your fault or maybe its the scripts fault - you don't know.  If its the script's fault then you're going to have to ask people to re-write the script for you.  Finally, what happens if you want to make small tweaks and adjustments to the script because it just isn't right?  Once again you're going to be dependent on whether or not other people like you and if they support your work.  I can't imagine anyone writing scripts for my Insanity Unchained simply because they know that their hard work and effort will all be for zero since they won't enjoy the final work.  How am I supposed to go around asking people for help in such a situation?  I've got strong hunch I'm not the only one who feels uncomfortable with such a situation but also many novice want-to-be quest makers.

I can only give my own experience, but bear with me:

 

I was 11 or 12 years old when I found ZC. Started my quest in 2012. I forget how much later I learned to put scripts in, but I can't have been older than 14.

Now I don't want to further the idea that young teenagers are idiots, but I worked out how to add scripts at that age. How to actually script? Not really. But copying and pasting things into a text file, saving that with a .z after it, importing it into ZQuest and then putting FFC and Item scripts into slots is not that complicated. If I could learn it at 14 (probably earlier) then either I'm a genius (I'm really not) or someone older should be able to learn that process comparatively easily, no?

 

And you act as if learning to use ZQuest is a piece of cake. It's not. Even the difference between combos and tiles is confusing to someone without experience in this kind of thing. Warps take time to learn. Strings take time to learn. Whatever the hell you do with Dmaps to set things up with those takes time to learn. Screen secrets? Yup. And, unless you have literally all the items from Zelda 1 or all the items that are in the game, you need to set up subscreens that work for your quest. It's mandatory. More mandatory than scripting, by a long shot. And even for someone who's worked with this program for ~seven years by this point, that stuff is a nightmare. Like, a proper one. It's the epitome of "is this my fault or the program's?" in ZQuest.

 

I also disagree that it's harder to tell what's a 'good' script. If it does what it should (like, uh, not softlocking your game when you step on the wrong kind of a combo, for example - that's an issue I had to deal with for a bit), then it's functional. You can argue about style and glitches in fringe cases, and I'd agree there.

But, as a musician, I've got to challenge your assertion that you can judge music to be as black and white in 'good' or 'bad'. Just listening to it can give you an idea of whether it works or not, just as just playing the game can give you an idea of whether the script works or not. But if we're going into style and fringe cases in scripts, then why couldn't we go into musical techniques? I dunno how much you guys know about music, but if your harmony's a bit weird or your rhythm is a bit off, it comes across. It still works and stuff, but it feels weird. I suppose it's definitely not your fault if you put it in your quest and it doesn't work musically, but that's not the thing I'm arguing :P.

Just had to argue that because that's one of those things I take offense at I guess. It'll be the same for graphics too (where more often the issues may lie with the questmaker - importing graphics is also kind of complicated).

 

 

And, lastly, even if ZC is dying (arguable, but I'll humour you for a moment), why should those of us who are still here not keep doing what we've been doing, making quests with and without scripts and keep developing the new versions for the small number of people who are still here? If it dies (I doubt it very much) at least we had fun. If anyone here does believe it's not worth it and believes ZC is dying, they can (and I don't doubt do) leave. The rest of us can keep enjoying it and maybe keep using ZC until we lose interest ourselves. And when it sees some kind of resurgence when 2.55 comes out (again, I don't doubt it) we can welcome the influx of new members (which there have been a few of in the last couple years, if you didn't notice).

 

 

I mean, it may be your job to predict things, but I assume you do this with extensive market research, right? I'm seeing a lot of empirical and anecdotal evidence that goes against some of your premises, let alone your conclusions. With respect, and hoping not to be too patronising, I'll quote some literature back to you:

 

"It is a capital mistake to theorise before you have all the evidence. It biases the judgement."

--Sherlock Holmes, A Scandal in Bohemia (Arthur Conan Doyle)


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#26 bigjoe

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Posted 20 October 2019 - 09:11 AM

Just a thought: If you believe that there are not enough challenge quest players, design a challenge quest that people will want to play. Make a case for why challenge quests should be the standard. I'm not a terribly successful quest maker. My quests sort of fall into a strange niche, it seems. But I'm happy that that niche exists. About three weeks ago I saw a guest in the who's online list looking at a thread on Link's Last Leg. I know that the quest has fallen among people who like it, despite that it sits somewhere on the middle/low ground in terms of ratings and downloads. You cannot constrain the ZC community to a binary subset.


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#27 DarkFlameSheep

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Posted 20 October 2019 - 09:32 AM

After all, I guess James tried to revenge ZC developers and other creators by made this topic, because quests he showed weren't given good responses on 20th Anniversary Quest Contest Discord server. Also, I played two of them, but I think they are too old design for 20th Anniversary Quest regardless of difficultly.


Edited by Stray Sheep, 25 October 2019 - 07:10 PM.

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#28 Hari

Hari

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Posted 20 October 2019 - 01:53 PM

James, I don't agree with how much you emphasize making quests that "sell." I think a lot of people on PureZC would agree with me that they make quests because they enjoy doing so, not because they want it to "sell." I know that I personally enjoy creating stuff and sharing it with others, which quest making allows me to do.

The reality is, making a fan game that sells isn't important because you legally cannot make money off of it. As such, fan games are something that you make for your own enjoyment, and maybe other people in the community will enjoy it too. Not that wanting your fan game to be popular is bad, but that popularity doesn't result in any monetary gain.

In my opinion, your argument treats fan games like any other product, but that comparison cannot be made due to it being illegal to sell fan games. And while it's definitely a positive for your fan game to be popular, that isn't why most people make fan games. If you want to make a game that sells, you would make a game that you can make money off of rather than wasting your time on a fan game. As such, fan games are generally passion projects that aren't made to "sell."



Another thing, ZC probably won't be dying any time soon, as long as a community continues to exist around it. There are many people, myself included, who have been a part of this community for years and aren't planning on leaving anytime soon. As long as people remain in the community, ZC will live on. Not to mention that when 2.55 is released, community activity will likely skyrocket like it did when 2.50 first released.

This whole doomsday thing is kinda extreme. As others have mentioned in this thread, your metrics for measuring community health are flawed. Forum activity may be rather low lately, but that is because everyone is chatting on the PZC Discord server. Hundreds of messages are sent there every day. The community has been doing as well as it's ever been. The main method of communication has just shifted from the forum to the Discord.



Overall, the community is doing fine, and it will likely be doing even better when 2.55 is released.

Edited by Hookshot, 20 October 2019 - 03:20 PM.

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#29 Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder

Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder

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Posted 20 October 2019 - 01:57 PM

I just think it's hilarious that someone thinks they can boil down every individual who likes games into two categories, type A and B. What a silly idea, people are a little more complex than that. Sounds like the kind of thing you'd want to say if you're so insecure that you have to mentally elevate yourself above everybody else. Not a good look though.


Edited by Migokalle, 20 October 2019 - 01:58 PM.

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#30 Moosh

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Posted 20 October 2019 - 03:59 PM

Honestly this boss just goes to show for me that the scripts weren't even the highest points of Mike's Fun House. The high points were all the original ideas Yloh pulled together with his own blood and sweat.
 

As for the quests you've mentioned, how can you verify whether or not the author really did or did not make scripts of their own?  Maybe the author painstakingly learned how to script on their own and made a script that, unknowningly to them, already existed on the database.  Truth is there's no way to know for sure except by relying on the word of the author.

What is this argument? A lot of what you say makes sense to me from some angle or another, but the idea that somebody would willfully lie about their own scripting ability when asked is pretty ridiculous. Why would they do this? Some sense of shame? Reinventing the wheel is all part of the scripting process.

 

I'd also say that most scripts past a certain level of complexity will have nuances that will be slightly different based on the scripter. For example, I can tell the difference between your fast walk floor and my own because of collision differences when interacting with walls, also because of how items move around along with the player due to the use of convenyors. Similarly with Mero's pit script there's certain quirks that make it easily identifiable. Everybody brings their own unique flavor even when creating the same things.

 

 

 

This brings me to another point brought up by a fair few - taking a public pre-made script or asking someone else to write the script for you and then putting it into your quest is, from my experience, undesirable.  First, there's plenty of scripts so you'd have to know your way around the script database and you don't even know if what you require even exists at all.  You could be going on a wild-goose chase.  Second of all there's the whole process of figuring out how to integrate your script into the quest using the ffc things.  Might be trivial for a seasoned scripter but its a nightmare for a beginner.  Third, you always worry about whether its going to work correctly in your quest.  If it doesn't, maybe its your fault or maybe its the scripts fault - you don't know.  If its the script's fault then you're going to have to ask people to re-write the script for you.  Finally, what happens if you want to make small tweaks and adjustments to the script because it just isn't right?  Once again you're going to be dependent on whether or not other people like you and if they support your work.  I can't imagine anyone writing scripts for my Insanity Unchained simply because they know that their hard work and effort will all be for zero since they won't enjoy the final work.  How am I supposed to go around asking people for help in such a situation?  I've got strong hunch I'm not the only one who feels uncomfortable with such a situation but also many novice want-to-be quest makers.

Some database scripts are certainly undesirable but that varies based on quality and implementation. I loved Slipstream which used mostly database scripts. It also uses an older script of mine that I'm not very proud of, so I somewhat lament that that made it in. But I'd never hold it against RedTribeLink. He did his very best with the tools he was given. It can also be hard to pick which database scripts are best for your project, and I think a lot of people just look to other successful quests first. This does create a sort of feedback loop where some flawed scripts get reused over and over because at one point they were the only option. I'd really encourage questmakers who use database scripts to rate and review the scripts they used more. And if a script gives you a bad experience either in the setup or execution, don't hesitate to make it known.

 

As far as script requests go, I can only speak for myself, but I try to write a little bit of something for everybody, whenever I can. I won't become a dedicated scripter for just any project, but as long as you haven't been vilified by the questmaking community (plagiarism, rampant shitposting, unforgivable acts, ect) I'd write a script for you. I've written scripts for people I don't like at all in the past because I still respect their questmaking ability. I haven't written many scripts for quests I haven't liked, but I also tend to look at just the script in isolation. So long as I'm not opposed to the core concept, how it's used is none of my business. So in my case, I'd absolutely write a script for Insanity Unchained...y'know, if it wasn't already released. I sure hope you didn't just learn scripting on your own because you assumed nobody would ever do it for you. If you ever start a LoH3 and there's a script you need, feel free to give me a call.

 

And sandwiched in between the more important points, you're absolutely right about the difficulty of setting up scripts. I can't blame some people for giving up because I was there too. A quest can still be great without scripts, if you're willing to put in the work to excel in other places.


Edited by Moosh, 20 October 2019 - 04:30 PM.

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