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Freeform dungeon basic basics


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#1 ChrisHunter64

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 12:11 PM

Heyo so on the quest im making ive been strictly using the nes dungeon pallet however if in the future i require to make a freeform dungeon i may need to know this.

Basically i would like to know if theres an easier way tp draw the walls out rather than using that scrambled mess of a tile sheet.

Im not needi g any info on the door combos because theres plenty of material reguarding that specifically on this forum however i havent been able to find any answer on just straight up the drawing of the dungeon.

I appreciate any info i can get though. Thank you.

#2 Lüt

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 12:30 PM

If you're using the default classic set, I sympathize with you greatly, and now you know why rearranging the dungeon walls into something usable is the first thing I do whenever I have to do dungeon work in a classic set.

One thing you can do is rearrange the combos manually. If you open the combo page, press "i" to insert blank spaces, and use "c" to copy and "m" to move the combos. Don't use "swap" because it won't update combos that are already placed. You have to use "m" to move them if you want your screens that already use them to be updated in the process, so what I do is insert blank spaces above the existing combos, then move them up one by one until they're out of the old arrangement and into the new one.

If you do that, this is my preferred arrangement...
right side
...though I guess you already saw that.

The other thing you can do is build larger wall segments using aliases. If you click the "normal" button on the top menu bar a few times, you'll cycle through modes until you get to "alias." At that point, what used to be your combo list changes into your alias list. From there, you can edit multi-combo arrangements. Right-click whatever one you want to use, then click "properties" to set the height and width. After that, click the black spaces, and you'll be given the combo list. Pick whichever ones you want, using + or - to change CSets, and you'll be able to place your final arrangement with a single click.

That said, the alias editor is rather clunky and obscure, so be ready to get up and walk in circles a lot if you're planning on combining that interface with the default classic dungeon wall layout.
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#3 ChrisHunter64

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 04:02 PM

Alright thats exactly what i feared but if it has to be done to get what im wanting then you gotta do what you gotta do.
I have seen your layout when i was searching the forum for stuff. When i stumbled upon your massive overhaul of the nes tileset i gotta say i was extreemly impressed and will totally be downloading that once i get real internet. So good job on that bro.

As always i appreciate the advice and will be putting the technique to good use. Hopefully i can make something cool with it. Just need to watch a bunch more lets plays and see other peoples things so i can get inspired on making more elaborate things.

#4 Binx

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 07:16 PM

I doesn't save a TON of work, but you could use the dungeon templates from screen 83 as a starting point, and edit them, from there. But, yeah, the default dungeon organization is a nightmare and makes very little sense.


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#5 Lüt

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 08:57 PM

I have seen your layout when i was searching the forum for stuff. When i stumbled upon your massive overhaul of the nes tileset i gotta say i was extreemly impressed and will totally be downloading that once i get real internet. So good job on that bro.

As always i appreciate the advice and will be putting the technique to good use. Hopefully i can make something cool with it. Just need to watch a bunch more lets plays and see other peoples things so i can get inspired on making more elaborate things.

Yeah, no problem. You know, you've really got a habit of posting a topic like 2 minutes before I log in.

I don't know how many LPs there are of freeform NES stuff. It's still somewhat of a rarity. Plenty of freeform stuff in other sets, sure - just not NES.

There's been a fair bit of it in the One Screen Massacre thread, a classic-based community project for which I loaded in some of the expanded dungeon tiles. You can see Anthus playing through some of it in this video at times 4:00-8:50, 11:45-13:20, and 27:45-28:40. You can also watch him bumbling around an early version of Level 1 in this video. (And yes, a number of those screens are mine.)

The quest that introduced the angled and lower-level dungeon walls to the NES set was Islands of Zelda. It starts rather traditional, but gradually grows more freeform as it progresses. Pixcalibur did a good LP of it a few years ago, you can view the full playlist here.

Anyway, what's with your internet? Streaming videos but can't download quest files? Regardless, it's probably possible to arrange your combo list, or port it to mine, without too much effort. You should also probably have some basics down before diving into that full set I've been doing though. I did go to efforts to make certain things easier and more accessible, like dungeon wall arrangements and aliases, but it's still a lot to take in if you're not very familiar with ZQ.

#6 ChrisHunter64

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 11:53 PM

Iwill definately check those out. Unfortunatly i only have a hotspot on my phone so i have phone internet but limited data for hotspot.
I wouldnt say im unfamiliar, just not super experienced. First tried zquest 3 years ago when i first dabbled with the specifics of it but theres specific things that i havent dabbled with that i have a hard time getting into. If i had the time i could probably make a pretty detailed quick quest but i want my first to be what i really learn stuff from so im trying to make it big and full of secrets and dungeons.

#7 Lüt

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 12:27 PM

Oh, main computer's not hooked up, got it.

Well if you're going to make a big quest, then yeah you'll probably want more design variety than just the same NES template over and over.

I mean, it's not like long quests using only that template haven't been well received before. There's still a lot of gameplay variety you can get out of the floor space that template provides. And it's kind of an expectation associated with Zelda 1 anyway, so there's enough of a crowd that accepts it and welcomes it.

But, better options are available, so it's worth exploring them if you want your stuff to stand out. As long as you've got the core program figured out, you might as well use a more intermediate or advanced set. At that point, the best way to learn is just jump in and start experimenting.

#8 NoeL

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 10:22 PM

You can switch to a draw mode called "dungeon carving" by pressing a key... I think it's the letter "O" from memory? I don't know if the classic set's combos are set up to allow for this, but if they are that's by far the fastest way to make freeform dungeons. And if they're not, setting up the combo table to allow for it is going to save you a TON of time over doing everything tile-by-tile.


Edited by NoeL, 14 July 2019 - 10:24 PM.

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#9 ChrisHunter64

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 11:24 PM

See i tried doing that with the way the classic sheet is set up but it doesnt work. I was hoping there was another way to do it like that which is why i made this post however rearanging things in a tedius manner seems to be the only efficient way.

#10 Lüt

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Posted 15 July 2019 - 08:38 AM

Carving's a special setup that looks insane but has a semblance of order beneath the chaos. Using it for manual construction is possibly the craziest thing you can do in ZQuest.

There's a tile sheet already configured for classic on the database: https://www.purezc.n...e=tiles&id=1170

As you can see, you'll definitely not want to overwrite the default combo arrangement with this one. They should be two separate sections of your combo list.

That goes doubly for classic dungeon tiles, because the way carving works is to repeat the same single tiles for every straight portion of the wall, so while it may work fine for orthogonally repetitive dungeon sets like LttP, in classic it won't be able to generate the angled vertical brick dividers that give the walls their downward-depth perspective. That's why I almost always build classic dungeon structures out of aliases rather than carving arrangements.

It's also worth noting that the vast majority of carving mode's tiles are dedicated to covering every possible corner combination that may appear with non-standard shapes, so most of those tiles won't have much practical application in manual construction anyway. And that database sheet only does it for top-level walls anyway - the lower-level walls just use duplicate tiles instead.

#11 ChrisHunter64

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 03:18 PM

so im currently trying to reorganize the classic combo sheet as youve suggested but i seem to be finding this rather difficult. it feels like everythings so jumbled i basically have to piece it all together like a complicated puzzle. do you think im doing this right or am i making this harder that it really is. ive followed the steps you said and inserted blank combos so i can move things around. sorry for praddling on about this subject i dont quite know if its against the rules to be continually asking questions on the same post or if im supposed to be PMing you for stuff like this.

 

also i tried downloading and ripping the tiles from that tile sheet that guy made and i know i followed his directions to a t but its still not working for me very well. seems to be all floor tiles end up being corner tiles instead so imma just use your setup tht you use.



#12 Lüt

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 04:14 PM

Yeah it's a mess either way. tbh it's actually easier for me to take an existing quest and rearrange it myself, than it is to try to explain how to unjumble that setup. So I was going to say, if you wanted to send your file over PM, I could take like 10 minutes and set it up, but unless you got your internet running, I suppose that would have to wait.

The carving tilesheet has two options for making combos from the tile page. Both are supposed to generate the same result as far as your combo list goes. I don't like the setup of that sheet, but it shouldn't be malfunctioning. You do have to switch the drawing mode to "dungeon" though. "Relational" or anything else will turn out nonsense.

And no you won't get banned for carrying on discussion or saying you're having trouble. If you keep posting "bump" in a topic that nobody's replying to, you might get a warning, but that's it.
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