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Idea for Alternate Choice ZC Quest - if anyone interested?

Idea for Alternate Choice ZC

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#1 SkyLizardGirl

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Posted 08 January 2021 - 05:10 AM

XnQEAuC.png
 
A ZC quest where you make choices, depending on what you do, or sub-quests you choose opens up different plots and different conflicts leading to different dungeons, destinations.
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So for instance, if you make a 'certain choice' like help somebody stop a village from burning,
You get a 'certain version' of your upcoming Level-2.

Hence:  you don't get access to the other two versions of that level-2 you are locked out from them forever, unless you start an entirely new game and try something else with other different choices etc.

 
If you let it burn you get a completely different future path of an upcoming dungeon that opens up.
 
>Depending on what items you collect allow you access to different secrets upon the Overworlds.
Tools you got from the dungeon Levels.
 

With Each different upcoming dungeon, you could end up with different lineups of items for beating each different path of the game.

The developer can choose whatever items they feel each version of that upcoming level should have in it.

 
The game could have like different versions of a finale Event and final dungeon also with a different ending even.
Depending on what choices you make.
 
>So its like an example of Alternate timelines that happened at the same exact moment, from where you make each of your choices, the different version of your main character or Link chooses as a different path.
 
Link encounters different kinds of dungeons and conflicts, so depending on what you do, you get a different upcoming Level-5 for example, than a level-5 you would have gotten if you had saved that girl or let her get attacked by a beast, by ignoring the sub-quest's time limit.
 
in a Way its kinda like Romancing Saga 3 where you choose a different character and different path.
Or Radiant Historia, however your choices you made are permanent for your one of many playthroughs.
 
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Anyways, i was thinking just an old fashioned NES Zelda Type Basic Tileset would be enough just to test out the entire concept of this quest would work just fine, unless people want to take the idea and make the game look different it's their choice. 
 
I am just putting this out there for Only those interested in this concept, so ZC has a history of somebody thinking out this idea.

Edited by SkyLizardGirl, 08 January 2021 - 05:23 AM.

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#2 NoeL

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Posted 08 January 2021 - 06:09 AM

It's a cool idea, but the reason we don't see many quests (or games) like this is that you end up needing to make a LOT of content, and most of it will go unseen unless players are willing to invest several play-throughs. Just using your graph, for the quest to be six dungeons long the author needs to create 22 different dungeon variants. Also, if each story event is tied into the former (so the choices you make affect what happens with the plot beyond just the next dungeon), that creates even MORE variation the author needs to write. It very quickly grows out of hand, which is why branching path games tend to either be very short or have the paths converge again further down the line.

 

What I liked though is your idea with items... well not really your idea, but your idea served as the inspiration for my idea. :P Which is:

 

Say the player gets a choice of 2-3 items. The next dungeon is just one dungeon (as opposed to different variants of the dungeon) but can be solved in different ways based on what item Link has (say if he chooses between a bow and a boomerang, one path through the dungeon requires the bow while another requires the boomerang). And each dungeon can hold items that lie on any number of paths (so maybe, the candle, can be picked up regardless of whether you have the bow or boomerang, or maybe you can only get it if you have either the bow or boomerang). To make it a bit more opaque, you could even make each choice a blind one (e.g. one key with items behind two locked doors instead of a guy saying "Choose the bow or boomerang!"). That way the player might not even realise there's choice - they're just playing the game (I imagine the quest would eventually open up the "missed" items further down the track). It would be like a non-linear Metroidvania where you just explore what you can but there's always several paths forwards.

 

I think this approach would be more feasible, at least in terms of the amount of content you'd need to author.


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#3 Emily

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Posted 08 January 2021 - 06:39 AM

I have seen games before that utilize multiple paths quite well, though those are usually NOT Zelda-style games, or even RPGs- usually it works with visual novels, wherein you need to go through multiple routes to see the whole story (see: Zero Escape trilogy).

 

Executed well, this could be interesting, though I don't see a particularly good way to encourage multiple playthroughs inherently- so quite a few people would likely invest 1 or 2 paths, and thus not see everything.


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#4 Jamian

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Posted 08 January 2021 - 06:48 AM

I had this same idea a long time ago, but I ended up not doing it for the reason NoeL said (you need to create tons of content, and most of it will go unseen). Going by your graph, you'd need to create a whopping 22 levels, only for the player to see 6 of them. This is like taking on the workload of making four different quests, and end up with only a regular-sized quest. So, while this is an interesting idea in theory, I find it unpractical.

 

 


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#5 Shane

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Posted 08 January 2021 - 08:17 AM

I could see this being reduced to 10 dungeons*, but keeping the 5 paths. That'd almost half the ambition going from regular quest-sized to miniquest-sized paths (and almost a Z1 quest as a whole). It could also make it easier to define each path better, hopefully. If you're willing to accept that not everyone may replay this multiple times and this is purely for your own vision and personal project, I don't see the harm in letting each player have their own experience, but I think the miniquest-sized path might increase the odds of more players giving a second go. That still doesn't mean it's not a risky project, especially with the proposed amount of 22 dungeons at the moment. But I see potential with the idea for sure!

 

I'd also write the story very carefully and not during actual dungeon development, if possible. The story could easily become a mess given you can alternate between the 5 paths.

 

* Though I think 13 might be more fitting to let the actual idea shine a bit better. But that's only if you have the commitment for it. :P


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#6 Lüt

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Posted 08 January 2021 - 09:18 AM

If there's anybody here who could handle a quest of that scale, it'd be HeroOfFire.

 

Even so, if I were to play a quest like that, I'd probably dedicate a separate ZC save file to it. Then I'd save the game before branch points, and use the menu to duplicate the game to new save slots, so I could just reload previous saves before branch points rather than replaying from the start each time.


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#7 Emily

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Posted 08 January 2021 - 10:37 AM

If there's anybody here who could handle a quest of that scale, it'd be HeroOfFire.

 

Even so, if I were to play a quest like that, I'd probably dedicate a separate ZC save file to it. Then I'd save the game before branch points, and use the menu to duplicate the game to new save slots, so I could just reload previous saves before branch points rather than replaying from the start each time.

Clearly just implement scripted save-states!



#8 klop422

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Posted 08 January 2021 - 04:42 PM

I personally do really like the idea of this kind of thing. This is the ideal of 'multiple-choice' games for me.

 

A couple things that I've thought about if I were making something like this, keeping in mind this is completely ignoring the scope and the work a creator would have to put into it:

  1. Different plotlines/'games' have to be different enough to warrant multiple playthroughs. Even Undertale, which has three main ways to play, is really similar over its three and can get a little uninteresting after a couple goes (that's definitely not helped by the fact that one of the three main versions of the game requires level-grinding). Having only the ending change after playing through it is even less interesting to play through to completion (I love Chrono Trigger, but my decision in my last playthrough to do all the endings left me burnt out from video games for a few weeks. Which wasn't such a bad thing, given that I had work to do, but still.) What you'd want is essentially multiple games/plotlines that could potentially happen concurrently, plot-wise, but are different enough that it's worth coming back for them.
  2. I don't think something like this could be too long. Ignoring a creator's workload, 6 dungeons might be slightly pushing it for length? If a player's spent a lot of time on a single game they're likely going to lose interest at some point - if you want the player to see multiple playthroughs you've got to make it a short-ish game. About 10 hours of gameplay per playthrough might be the limit - that's the length of Undertale, iirc, and Chrono Trigger, which is about 15-20 hours, gets boring to me after about two.
  3. I'm not sure the expectation of a single player seeing everything is a feasible goal or even one you want to aim towards. Something like this would be better suited to a 'cultural' game, where everyone does one or two playthroughs and then discusses it extensively with others. Maybe I'm setting the scope way too high for a ZC quest, but something like this would be ideal for Youtube Let's Plays, where every single playthrough is different. Ideally you'd end up with lots and lots of major and minor choices, but this would make the workload a lot bigger. You might end up alienating some completionists, sure, but true 100% completionists are comparatively rare?
  4. I'm not convinced major changes in the endings are even needed if you make the scope of the changes during the game big enough? I suppose it depends on what the current 'plotline' looks like - obviously (and I'm taking plot points off the top of my head here) if you kill Zelda it'd make no sense for her to finally become Queen Zelda in the ending, and if you decide to woo her then you can't have an ending where she officiates your wedding with Malon (or you could, if your game has a polygamy route?). But if the focus is on changes to the main plot I think the changes in the main plot might be enough to warrant the multiple playthroughs.
  5. In the spirit of every playthrough being different, imo many (or at least a non-trivial number) of the choices shouldn't be telegraphed. Things like who you speak to first or whether you do something specific that isn't specifically pointed out should pay off in small or big ways. Taking the burning village as an example, I'd personally love to see a game where there's a specific character you can save but isn't telegraphed (too overtly), and if you don't notice them (or do and fail to save them, I guess?) then they eventually come back as a villain. Other examples might be stealing a sword early in the game, leading to the death of a character who might have been able to use it later, etc. I personally love stuff like that in stories.

Again, idk how feasible all of it is in a ZC quest, given the extreme scope of something like this, and the fact that every choice means a change in the remainder of the game grows the scope immensely. Something like this may have to be a team effort, tbh.

 

And you'd have to check that every single individual plotline is completely coherent on its own, so that each playthrough makes sense. Again, lots of work in the pre-planning.

 

Although, it does occur to me that you could make some parts of the plot take place regardless - say you can pick between three factions, and halfway through the plot they have a big fight. At the very least the work on the level design could be mitigated a little by reusing the same level in different versions.

 

tl;dr: I'd love to play such a game (and I might even make my own at some point, if I got enough others involved and enough free time), but it'd be difficult to make and very large in scope.


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#9 SkyLizardGirl

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Posted 08 January 2021 - 06:34 PM

I personally do really like the idea of this kind of thing. This is the ideal of 'multiple-choice' games for me.

 

A couple things that I've thought about if I were making something like this, keeping in mind this is completely ignoring the scope and the work a creator would have to put into it:

  1. Different plotlines/'games' have to be different enough to warrant multiple playthroughs. Even Undertale, which has three main ways to play, is really similar over its three and can get a little uninteresting after a couple goes (that's definitely not helped by the fact that one of the three main versions of the game requires level-grinding). Having only the ending change after playing through it is even less interesting to play through to completion (I love Chrono Trigger, but my decision in my last playthrough to do all the endings left me burnt out from video games for a few weeks. Which wasn't such a bad thing, given that I had work to do, but still.) What you'd want is essentially multiple games/plotlines that could potentially happen concurrently, plot-wise, but are different enough that it's worth coming back for them.
  2. I don't think something like this could be too long. Ignoring a creator's workload, 6 dungeons might be slightly pushing it for length? If a player's spent a lot of time on a single game they're likely going to lose interest at some point - if you want the player to see multiple playthroughs you've got to make it a short-ish game. About 10 hours of gameplay per playthrough might be the limit - that's the length of Undertale, iirc, and Chrono Trigger, which is about 15-20 hours, gets boring to me after about two.
  3. I'm not sure the expectation of a single player seeing everything is a feasible goal or even one you want to aim towards. Something like this would be better suited to a 'cultural' game, where everyone does one or two playthroughs and then discusses it extensively with others. Maybe I'm setting the scope way too high for a ZC quest, but something like this would be ideal for Youtube Let's Plays, where every single playthrough is different. Ideally you'd end up with lots and lots of major and minor choices, but this would make the workload a lot bigger. You might end up alienating some completionists, sure, but true 100% completionists are comparatively rare?
  4. I'm not convinced major changes in the endings are even needed if you make the scope of the changes during the game big enough? I suppose it depends on what the current 'plotline' looks like - obviously (and I'm taking plot points off the top of my head here) if you kill Zelda it'd make no sense for her to finally become Queen Zelda in the ending, and if you decide to woo her then you can't have an ending where she officiates your wedding with Malon (or you could, if your game has a polygamy route?). But if the focus is on changes to the main plot I think the changes in the main plot might be enough to warrant the multiple playthroughs.
  5. In the spirit of every playthrough being different, imo many (or at least a non-trivial number) of the choices shouldn't be telegraphed. Things like who you speak to first or whether you do something specific that isn't specifically pointed out should pay off in small or big ways. Taking the burning village as an example, I'd personally love to see a game where there's a specific character you can save but isn't telegraphed (too overtly), and if you don't notice them (or do and fail to save them, I guess?) then they eventually come back as a villain. Other examples might be stealing a sword early in the game, leading to the death of a character who might have been able to use it later, etc. I personally love stuff like that in stories.

Again, idk how feasible all of it is in a ZC quest, given the extreme scope of something like this, and the fact that every choice means a change in the remainder of the game grows the scope immensely. Something like this may have to be a team effort, tbh.

 

And you'd have to check that every single individual plotline is completely coherent on its own, so that each playthrough makes sense. Again, lots of work in the pre-planning.

 

Although, it does occur to me that you could make some parts of the plot take place regardless - say you can pick between three factions, and halfway through the plot they have a big fight. At the very least the work on the level design could be mitigated a little by reusing the same level in different versions.

 

tl;dr: I'd love to play such a game (and I might even make my own at some point, if I got enough others involved and enough free time), but it'd be difficult to make and very large in scope.

 

 

I'd love to see something like that.

 

My idea was, you play as link in a different land besides just using hyrule or Zelda-ish characters, that way you can write the stories how you want and things can be set out any way the developer wants than depending on the plots of every other ordinary zelda games.

 

So you can build small villages and stuff, whatever is desired instead of following strict guidelines of hyrule etc.

 

But anyways, that would make designing the game alot more simple and expand upon the developers own chosen ideas.

 

However- with the dungeon lineup, you could still just have it strictly where your choices to decide the next dungeon, are always of 3 different new choices constantly each time, In order to simplify the game more than making the choices much larger at the end as seen on the example chart above.

 

That way the developer/developers can narrow down the work a bit.


Edited by SkyLizardGirl, 08 January 2021 - 06:42 PM.



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