411 replies to this topic

[Beefster]

Zelda Classic is a great program. But it has its quirks and redneck fixes for everything. Multiple rewrites have been suggested, but I think we need to go in a SLIGHTLY different direction if we DO rewrite.

Scripting needs to be in from the beginning. I want to abstract away from hard-coding everything, opening room for more complex bugs and messy coding that hasn't been touched since Phantom Menace managed ZC. In addition, it would be extremely helpful to pull away from the legacy ZASM and ZScript using Python.
The only things that should be hard coded are cameras, collision and the scripting interfaces. Enemy AI, items, combo types, etc.. should all be driven by scripts for increased modularity and simpler engine upkeep. (most things will be pre-scripted so it will still be completely possible to make a game without scripting yourself)
This would also nearly eliminate the need for quest rules and screen data.

Drop Allegro in favor of SDL. This will increase portability and expand it to, say, the Wii.
Use wx for a GUI. That way you get a NATIVE interface.
Support full 32 bit color. (You'll still be able to use palette graphics if you want them.)

Simplify the interfaces that n00bs usually ask about. Simplify shops. Make messages easier to use. Make it completely obvious how to do everything. (But don't bring in the ribbon, or I will kill somebody. I hate that thing.)

Remove the arbitrary limits. Why only 32 ffcs? Use dynamic allocation, people!
What's 1 byte compared to 100 megs? Almost nothing. Bring internal values up to 4 byte sizes.
Extend access of global game variables and all counters to the subscreen.
The limits ZC has are just ridiculous. Game engines should be limited to your CPU and imagination.

No doubt, finishing ZC 2.50 is a higher priority. When that's done, start on a quality rewrite. I'm entirely willing to help in every way I can with this rewrite.

It looks like the project is gaining momentum. Here are a few links to Google Waves we've started...
UML Diagram
Signup List
Polls

Edited by Beefster, 30 June 2010 - 05:53 PM.

[Cameron]

I agree with you in some places (easier interface, drop allegro, move ZScript and ZASM to Python) but I really don't think it's necessary to take so many things out and replace them with scripting. There are lots of people, including myself, who wouldn't want to learn scripting. The big reason I like Zelda Classic is the total lack of scripting needed to make a good quest.

[Lemon]

Having scripting be "optional" is one of the greatest things of Zc. You can still make a perfectly fine game without it; thus welcoming scripting noobs like myself into it's world and allowing us to still enjoy it's pleasures.

The limits ZC has are just ridiculous. Game engines should be limited to your CPU and imagination.

I'd argue that. I think you just have to be more creative with how you want to get something done. Maybe you can't get it to work exactly like you imagined... but chance is good you can make a compromise and still get something perfectly kickass.

Also, Zelda Modern doesn't ring as nicely as Zelda Classic does.

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

Having scripting be "optional" is one of the greatest things of Zc. You can still make a perfectly fine game without it; thus welcoming scripting noobs like myself into it's world and allowing us to still enjoy it's pleasures.


I'd argue that. I think you just have to be more creative with how you want to get something done. Maybe you can't get it to work exactly like you imagined... but chance is good you can make a compromise and still get something perfectly kickass.

Also, Zelda Modern doesn't ring as nicely as Zelda Classic does.

The only thing that really TRULY sparks creativity, is limits. Without them, you will be sitting there wondering which of all the choices you should be making.

So I agree with Lemon here, but I think the limits makes it EASIER for a creative mind to do something... well, creative.

[Christian]

Zelda Classic has been pissing me off lately with all the limitations it has with everything. It's either you do the hardway with that program or don't do it at all. Only 5 general scripting flags? No 2x2 enemies or animations? 32 FFCs? only 8 Screen->D variables? No custom Link animation sprites other than walk, charge, and swim?

[lucas92]

You can do 2x2 animations... Yeah, allegro windows are causing glitches for me. I'd like to see Zelda Classic ported to SDL someday. Oh, I support python scripting. I've always searched for a reason to learn it.

[Plissken]

The only limitation that is TRULY ridiculous is 8 bit color.

[Lemon]

8 bit color is fine . Just choose your colors wisely. Even then, you always have the option to swap out four rows of them for whatever else you may want.

[Plissken]

I'm just saying, when I can go into GM and rip a .psd (photoshop) file just straight in without fiddling with palettes and stuff, it's amazing.

And really, we have 8 bit, but for something that needs it's own colors we only have like...64 usable colors (most of which are already being used.) It's a nightmare to try and rip something big, or that needs a lot of it's own colors into a pre existing palette.

[Lemon]

GM graphic are a much higher quality though; and in most cases you can definitely tone them down to at least 5 colors (I'm thinking of the mountain ones where there's a good 16 right there).

I'm currently working soley in 8-bit mode and am finding it pretty swell just having each row have two colors, and all the various shades of them. The colors to substitute out are mostly extras, like greyer versions of those colors.

Even if you can't match the color perfectly, you should be able to find pretty good substitutes.

[Zenith]

Something I'd really like to see is better sound capabilities. Would it be too hard to at least...dunno if I'm phrasing this right...upgrade ZC's ability to handle MIDI files? There's been some music I've had to pass up on even though they sounded good 'cause ZC changes some of the file's tracks for some reason.

[Beefster]

For those complaining:

(most things will be pre-scripted so it will still be completely possible to make a game without scripting yourself)

Dropping Allegro for SDL gives better graphics/sound capabilities.

You can still arbitrarily set your own limits if you want it that way.

Edited by Beefster, 07 June 2010 - 04:43 PM.

[Joe123]

The only limitation that is TRULY ridiculous is 8 bit color.

8-bit colour's lovely, the ridiculous part is how static the palette is. 48 reserved colours that you can't use plus only 64 colours that can be changed and on a rather clunky basis, it's horrible. Game->SetColour(int pos, int r, int g, int b) would be nice...

[Lemmy Koopa]

I'm just saying, when I can go into GM and rip a .psd (photoshop) file just straight in without fiddling with palettes and stuff, it's amazing.

And really, we have 8 bit, but for something that needs it's own colors we only have like...64 usable colors (most of which are already being used.) It's a nightmare to try and rip something big, or that needs a lot of it's own colors into a pre existing palette.

What is GM?

[Christian]

8-bit colour's lovely, the ridiculous part is how static the palette is. 48 reserved colours that you can't use plus only 64 colours that can be changed and on a rather clunky basis, it's horrible. Game->SetColour(int pos, int r, int g, int b) would be nice...

ZScript functions manipulating RGB values would be a godsend from ZC.

What is GM?

GameMaker.