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Swimming with the sharks


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#1 James24

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 01:02 AM

You're walking on the beach one day and you see someone in the middle of the ocean and he's drowning.  You're a trained life-saver and very good at swimming and he's only 5 minutes out in the middle of clear waters so you take a small swim and save his life.  All and good.

 

But lets imagine a different scenario.  The person you're trying to save will take you several days of swimming to reach.  In addition, sharks are starting to circle around the poor guy and if you try and rescue him, there's a good chance you're going to be eaten alive.  Finally, you know next to nothing about swimming or life-saving.  You can't contact anyone to get help because there are no phones nearby and your mobile is dead.  

 

Is there any legal or moral obligation on a person witnessing this person to act?  And what would you do in the second scenario?



#2 Moosh

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 02:48 AM

To provide some context to this topic, this was a discussion James and I had in PM and the subject of the discussion leading up to it was the impact of social standing on quest criticism. This shark hypothetical was dropped straight out of nowhere, caught me unawares, and I thought it was amusing enough that he should share it. James seems to have revised his statement somewhat since, but seeing as he's agreed to open a public discussion on this, I assume he will have no issue with me quoting the original for comparison.

Spoiler

Notable differences are the lack of any mention of phones or outside help in the original and I am no longer the one drowning in the scenario. 

 

There was also another scenario he envisioned that I was hoping he'd share. Give us Starvin' Marvin, James! :P



#3 DarkFlameSheep

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 04:34 AM

We should consult real lawyers about very complex and serious problems such this.


Edited by DarkFlame Sheep, 17 May 2020 - 08:49 AM.

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#4 Mani Kanina

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 05:20 AM

These hypothetical scenarios feel so completely far off and removed from quest criticism that I don't even know. Like, just putting up another person's life is at risk should *already* highlight how deeply flawed making any comparisons between the two situations are.



#5 Nathaniel

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 08:58 AM

Aha, a big hypothetical question.  As unlikely as we are to face these ever in our lifetime, they are interesting questions to attempt to answer.  And there is never really a right answer to them.
 
In the first case, there is definintely no legal obligation, unless one enacts a good samaritan law (similar to the one presented in the last episode of Seinfeld), or perhaps you are part of an actual rescue squad and in the right condition to do the rescue.  As for moral obligation, that is dependent on the judgment of individuals and their own sense of moral code, which is never universal.  Also, who has the moral authority to say that their sense of morality is the one for all to follow?  However, if it was within my abilities as stated and thus the chance of success is high (such as at least 75%) and the chance of my own survival in the process is very high (such as at least 90%), I would do it.  In reality it likely isn't within my abilities to a high enough degree, to be clear.  I can swim, but I am far from a great swimmer, nor am I trained in water rescues, and I was never a lifeguard, if that holds any weight.
 
Is there a moral obligation to do something that will almost definitely get you killed, even with the greatest of skills?  I would say definitely no.  If there is a legal obligation in that case for anybody nearby, god help us all.  We all have our limitations, and I think it matters to know and understand that.  We can't save the world, but we can do our part where possible.  To be obligated to do what is likely to get yourself killed in order to rescue a stranger puts one's own life value below that of the other.  Volunteering is another story, but one should also not be foolish about it.

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#6 Jamian

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 11:32 AM

Could you elaborate on how this relates to quest criticism?


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#7 Haylee

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 01:18 PM

Firstly, if it takes several days to swim to the guy, that implies you're several miles away, even if you CAN'T swim, which implies you wouldn't even be able to see the person in the first place. Also, if it takes several days to swim to the person, you'd much faster leave the location, and find a phone. You said there aren't any phones nearby, but it'd be faster than swimming by your logic because of how readily phones would be in a different location.

 

Spoiler


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#8 Evan20000

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 01:55 PM

AreYouMakingFunOfSharks.jpg


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#9 Titanium Justice

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 02:02 PM

If the person is several days away, how would you even find out that there's a person drowning in water that far away to begin with?



#10 Mani Kanina

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 03:20 PM

If the person is several days away, how would you even find out that there's a person drowning in water that far away to begin with?

This is the true power of type B overlords, they can feel people suffering even far away so they can use their super power to not give a shit.


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#11 Rambly

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 06:49 PM

These hypothetical scenarios feel so completely far off and removed from quest criticism that I don't even know. Like, just putting up another person's life is at risk should *already* highlight how deeply flawed making any comparisons between the two situations are.

You don't understand.  People on this forum are DYING because people are leaving too much criticism, or not enough, or the wrong type of criticism or something, I'm not even sure what the quest criticism thing was about.  Either way, people are DYING Mani Kanina.  Bush knocked down the twin towers


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#12 DarkFlameSheep

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 07:39 PM

You don't understand.  People on this forum are DYING because people are leaving too much criticism, or not enough, or the wrong type of criticism or something, I'm not even sure what the quest criticism thing was about.  Either way, people are DYING Mani Kanina.  Bush knocked down the twin towers

Rambly, do you have much better suggestions for James24 than Mani Kanina's?

Well, James24 seems to keep to make Type B quests, I believe it's his freedom. But now standard of Type B quest is Mike's Fun House, I think making better than MFH is so difficult, simply.


Edited by DarkFlame Sheep, 17 May 2020 - 08:12 PM.


#13 Aevin

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 08:18 PM

I don't get the connection to quest criticism, but on a philosophical level, I generally agree with James's view on the hypothetical.

 

You're not legally, nor in some cases, morally obligated to put your own life at risk to save another. In some scenarios, to do so would be foolish, and only result in two drowned people instead of one.

 

However, I think where I disagree here is the notion that the main reason to rescue a drowning person is for "social standing." Sure, being thanked or praised as a hero might be nice, but for me, it's just nice not to see people die. The concept of "morality" is a tough one, but a key point to me is that it's not about what you gain, or other people's approval. It's about doing what you think is right. So, while it depends on how much you'll put yourself at risk, the idea of shrugging off someone in need and going about your day whistling while they die is pretty awful, and not something I could do. Even if it were logically justifiable that I abandoned them, I'd still be haunted by the memory of that person I could have saved.


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#14 DarkFlameSheep

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 09:07 PM

After all, James24 wants to say "I wants to make only type B quests, I never want to make type A quests for general demands." At any time, I say it's your freedom and if you never want to see any bad rating and any bad comment for your quests, you should put your quests on a your website, never put any official database like CastChaos does.


Edited by DarkFlame Sheep, 17 May 2020 - 09:43 PM.

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#15 Hergiswi

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 10:53 PM

i knew this had to be some sort of quest-related analogy as soon as i saw who posted it


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