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#1 Anthus

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 02:23 AM

Tile error. Those clash. That grass needs a better border. That cliff is too straight. The water needs more detail. That blue doesn't quite work with those floor borders. Those pillars are the wrong perspective. OPEN CORNERS?!

 

Enough. It's time we had a talk, ZC community. I remember when you were young, and innocent. Classic, BS, and NewFirst and Glenn's old GB set were really all we had. PrinceMSC made the Revenge set, which gained in popularity, and quest making was simple. We didn't have these insane expectations from others to be the prettiest quest. It didn't matter if all the dungeons used the same walls. Maybe we grew out of this because you can only rehash Zelda 1 so many times. Maybe we got sick of seeing the same tiles again and again. We wanted more. Things could look better. Pure came out, saw a boom in popularity, DoR came out around after 2.10's release, people started ripping MC graphics. Then, we got to a point where, no matter what, there is something wrong.

 

Our humble beginnings were tossed to the wind as more and more tiles became available. You became insatiable. There was nothing that could please you. The focus became less on making something good, or fun, and more on making it look good. This has caused many projects to be dropped by many people due to pressure from others to strive for a certain, perfect aesthetic, or the sheer time required to make said perfect aesthetic. You became superficial. You lost sight of what made you fall in love with the program in the first place. We weren't making simple Zelda games anymore. We were in an arms race with ourselves to make the best looking pixels you'd ever lay your shitty little mortal eyes upon.

 

But now we've come full circle in some ways. The highest rated/ most acclaimed new quests right now are one that uses a hodgepodge of Classic tiles (Panoply of Calatia) and a quest with a rather simple, yet consistent look (Yuurei). Maybe we are learning that graphics really don't matter in the ZC world, unless you can pack in the substance to make it worth it to slog through all those pretty screens that fundamentally play like an NES game from 31 years ago.

 

So what is my point? Well, we gotta stop being so obsessed with making stuff look good. Yep, that's it.


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#2 Architect Abdiel

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 04:09 AM

I can agree with this. I mean, if we are talking about the contests, I'd say it's a bit different. But just in general, we don't exactly get paid to make these. We do it cause we enjoy it, I hope. If you can make your quest pretty, all power to you. I try to at least make mine look nice myself. But I'd say beauty isn't as important as functionality. And I hope that in general most people would agree with that.

But me for instance, when I design something, I first think of where I want my gameplay to go with that screen. Then, if the screen feels like it needs something to me, I add something. But it really does take a lot of time to try to make things look nice. And not everyone here can learn that to begin with. So it's a bit of a ridiculous expectation.

Anthus! I miss your DotM thing. I know it generally wasn't every month, but it was fun.


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#3 Shane

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 04:34 AM

I do agree with this, but I do believe that graphics are merely a tool and it's the user that can become a problem in these types of situations. There's nothing inherently wrong with making a quest fun and look good, they can co-exist together. Rite of the Storm makes the fullest use of custom graphics which took about a week to create and the quest itself took an additional two weeks to make. Despite being fully customized visually it is still a fairly simple quest that (I hope) is fun to play. I feel custom graphics can give a quest a sense of identity and the two quests you mentioned certainly do the same thing in that regard.

 

And to be honest, I thought EZGBZ and Classic tilesets were the most dominantly used tilesets on the forums nowadays? I barely see any actual DoR projects nowadays.

 

Want to know what grinds my gears though? The first sentence, you nailed it almost perfectly. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to fix tile errors but this whole "Detail! Detail! DETAIL!!" mentality is certainly something I never fully approved of. I like making my screens clean and readable and I feel these are design choices that wouldn't fly well back in, say, 2009. We're becoming a bit more loose with our standards nowadays but there's still a lingering presence. Personally nowadays it's the "nothing special" comments and vague criticisms that are really the most off putting. Most screens in ZC are gonna be mundane transition screens, why do we want them to become something unique? If anything making every screen unique ruins the screens that should be the most unique like a dungeon entrance or important landmark. There's nothing wrong with asking constructive criticism. If anything, I want to listen to it in order to become better which there's nothing wrong in doing so; apparently now criticism is a completely negative thing and asking for it means you have self hatred and you're striving for "perfection". I don't want to be on a forum without constructive criticism, but I wouldn't mind if the nitpicking and forced criticism for the sake of criticism went away. It's become a contest tradition it seems and it's one of the reasons why I'm opting out of these contests.

 

Also the obsession with perfection isn't limited to graphics. It can be pretty much every aspect of a quest ranging from quest size to jamming your quest pack full of scripts that are just there for flash. Projects themselves have gotten more ambitious, obsessed with becoming the biggest and most "epic" quest since HoD and IoR. It's not just graphics at play here is where I'm getting at. Nothing wrong with ambition but people don't take in how much time it takes and how much experience, inspiration and motivation it requires. It also doesn't help that it feels like there's this disdain view that miniquests can only be mediocre at best or can't impress people.


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#4 Moosh

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 07:59 AM

I think the obsession with perfection is still there, it's just changed focus from graphics to design, specifically with standing out from every other quest. I frequently find myself worried if I have too many enemies or block puzzles in a dungeon. I'll openly admit I tend to jam scripts into my quests just to cover up my lack of consistent creative drive. And I of course I tend to judge other quests the same way. I feel bad about it because it's not fair to those who can't script, but I've just lost interest in playing through enemy-rush style quests. 


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#5 Matthew

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 08:06 AM

A reason I think Lunaria is so important to ZC is because she has really good critique about design itself, not minor or petty things. Her criticisms were relevant to making the quest itself better, aside from just the graphics.

Anyways, well said.
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#6 Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 08:40 AM

Graphics matter as much as every other element that makes up a game. Period. It is not however about having the snazziest textures, or in the case of ZC, the most awesome of sprite work, what matters is how you use what you've got to create your vision. That's it. To try and define one element of a game as more important than another isn't really worth it in my mind, because it's not possible. I don't do programming but I love art and design, but it's not like I'm blind to the importance of programming when it comes to developing games. I don't see one as more important than another, they're just pieces of a puzzle and they can't form a bigger picture without each other.

 

So I won't stop spending waaaay too much time obsessing over a single screen, because that's what I love to do. That's why I even bother to boot up ZC, because obsessing over this shit is literally what I enjoy about it. :P


Edited by Migokalle, 22 May 2017 - 08:46 AM.

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#7 TheLegend_njf

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 09:46 AM

Lots of lengthy posts here, so I'm first going to answer the question of the title itself, and then when I got more time later go into more detail.

 

I believe obsession with perfection is what leads to procrastination and overall complete quest failure. I've seen this trend in people who are obsessed with perfection that when they overcome a certain trial or obstacle, or make some sort of achievement, they later criticize themselves still, considering the earlier achievement to be "child's play" or "something anyone can do". 

 

They constantly analyze their faults, and never praise their achievements. Obsessed with development and growth, and is never satisfied. This is why they look at every past project as a "failed attempt" in their path to some more superior thing. 

 

The problem with this mentality though is that you'll never be satisfied. It'll never happen. You'll always see your past projects as "lacking" despite how well they were received by the community. What will happen with this mentality is even when you achieve that near perfection you were aiming for, you'll still ultimately feel like a failure because it just isn't perfect enough.

 

This is a logical fallacy because nothing is perfect. There is no perfect thing in this world. 

 

The main reason I'm always confident in my work is because I celebrate every achievement, but also appreciate my quest's flaws as part of it's character. It's like that scar you probably received while riding a bike that is a part of what makes you, you!

 

One more important thing though I'd like to add. There is a huge difference between perfection and general maintenance. If you find a bug or flaw you don't like, fix it. That's normal, it's called work. But when you reach the point where you are in the mental state where you are obsessed with the flaws and always downplay the achievements, what you are doing is filtering out the good to always paint a negative picture.

 

But that's my two cents worth anyways, it really doesn't amount to much because I feel the entire community expects some level of perfection in quests. I'm the odd one out here. 



#8 Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 10:06 AM

Obsession is literally the hobby though. It's not an obsession with perfection, you're creating something out of a mental image. And to do that you need to obsess over it. If you're not invested enough to obsess a little over it, then why/how do you expect others to be interested enough to 'invest' in it, or play it?

 

It's not your obsession that's keeping you from finishing a project either, that's a cop-out. Your obsession is what creates the project, but you can't blame your failures on some concept. There's many reasons why I stopped working on my old DoR-tileset quest but being obsessed with it was not one of them. The fact that I was no longer obsessed with it however, was a big contributor to its demise. Take that for what you will.

 

Perfection doesn't exists. Make something you're happy with and go from there. But don't start telling others what they're doing is wrong just because you're not going down the same path. It's not about comparing achievements.


Edited by Migokalle, 22 May 2017 - 10:07 AM.

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#9 TheLegend_njf

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 10:18 AM

After reading through the comments, there are two specific things I felt like replying to. Everything everything else I said above still applies. 
 

Tile error. Those clash. That grass needs a better border. That cliff is too straight. The water needs more detail. That blue doesn't quite work with those floor borders. Those pillars are the wrong perspective. OPEN CORNERS?!

 

Enough. It's time we had a talk, ZC community. I remember when you were young, and innocent. Classic, BS, and NewFirst and Glenn's old GB set were really all we had. PrinceMSC made the Revenge set, which gained in popularity, and quest making was simple. We didn't have these insane expectations from others to be the prettiest quest. It didn't matter if all the dungeons used the same walls. Maybe we grew out of this because you can only rehash Zelda 1 so many times. Maybe we got sick of seeing the same tiles again and again. We wanted more. Things could look better. Pure came out, saw a boom in popularity, DoR came out around after 2.10's release, people started ripping MC graphics. Then, we got to a point where, no matter what, there is something wrong.

 

Our humble beginnings were tossed to the wind as more and more tiles became available. You became insatiable. There was nothing that could please you. The focus became less on making something good, or fun, and more on making it look good. This has caused many projects to be dropped by many people due to pressure from others to strive for a certain, perfect aesthetic, or the sheer time required to make said perfect aesthetic. You became superficial. You lost sight of what made you fall in love with the program in the first place. We weren't making simple Zelda games anymore. We were in an arms race with ourselves to make the best looking pixels you'd ever lay your shitty little mortal eyes upon.

 

But now we've come full circle in some ways. The highest rated/ most acclaimed new quests right now are one that uses a hodgepodge of Classic tiles (Panoply of Calatia) and a quest with a rather simple, yet consistent look (Yuurei). Maybe we are learning that graphics really don't matter in the ZC world, unless you can pack in the substance to make it worth it to slog through all those pretty screens that fundamentally play like an NES game from 31 years ago.

 

So what is my point? Well, we gotta stop being so obsessed with making stuff look good. Yep, that's it.

I prefer making very pretty quests that hold a lot of gameplay value. This is just a personal taste of mine that doesn't negatively impact on my interests as a quest designer. I'm unfortunately incapable of making quests like PoC or Yuurei because I am one of those who's heavily detailed focus. But I am not detailed focus because of the ZC Master Race, but more so because I have a passion for beautiful screens.

 

Want to know what grinds my gears though? The first sentence, you nailed it almost perfectly. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to fix tile errors but this whole "Detail! Detail! DETAIL!!" mentality is certainly something I never fully approved of. I like making my screens clean and readable and I feel these are design choices that wouldn't fly well back in, say, 2009. We're becoming a bit more loose with our standards nowadays but there's still a lingering presence. Personally nowadays it's the "nothing special" comments and vague criticisms that are really the most off putting. Most screens in ZC are gonna be mundane transition screens, why do we want them to become something unique? If anything making every screen unique ruins the screens that should be the most unique like a dungeon entrance or important landmark. There's nothing wrong with asking constructive criticism. If anything, I want to listen to it in order to become better which there's nothing wrong in doing so; apparently now criticism is a completely negative thing and asking for it means you have self hatred and you're striving for "perfection". I don't want to be on a forum without constructive criticism, but I wouldn't mind if the nitpicking and forced criticism for the sake of criticism went away. It's become a contest tradition it seems and it's one of the reasons why I'm opting out of these contests.

Once again, I am one of those people who love detail. It's more so of a passion for me than anything related to the ZC Master Race. 

 

Even though I am competitive in nature, it isn't my main focus. Most of my quest design are on a passionate level. So even if that shows the same signs of "Trying to be too pretty", then so be it. It was never my intent to be pretty just for the sake of trying to beat other quests. I am just very passionate for that kind of design. 

 

Like Moosh said above, there's more of a focus on gameplay now than ever, and this is where most of my thought goes into. I can design pretty screens without thought now, I seriously can zone out it's become such a breeze for me. But making gameplay functional screens that are designed well and not frustrating requires a lot of thought and bug testing, I'm then forced to put a little thought into the design, and I love it!

 

I'll conclude by repeating an earlier point. It's very important to love what you are doing, because if you're so hard on yourself that you cannot enjoy your work, it'll often end in failure because you'll just abandon it (I don't mean you specifically, I'm using the word you in a more general context).


Obsession is literally the hobby though. It's not an obsession with perfection, you're creating something out of a mental image. And to do that you need to obsess over it. If you're not invested enough to obsess a little over it, then why/how do you expect others to be interested enough to 'invest' in it, or play it?

 

It's not your obsession that's keeping you from finishing a project either, that's a cop-out. Your obsession is what creates the project, but you can't blame your failures on some concept. There's many reasons why I stopped working on my old DoR-tileset quest but being obsessed with it was not one of them. The fact that I was no longer obsessed with it however, was a big contributor to its demise. Take that for what you will.

 

Perfection doesn't exists. Make something you're happy with and go from there. But don't start telling others what they're doing is wrong just because you're not going down the same path. It's not about comparing achievements.

 

I'd like to argue that in this context. Passion beats obsession almost every time. However, passion often leads to obsession. You could say I'm a little obsessed with my own projects. But the concept of "perfection" is something I have no interest in obsessing over. 


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#10 Architect Abdiel

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 10:25 AM

I'd say obsession can go either way to be honest. It's like pretty much everything, you need a balance. You need enough obsession to stick to your vision, and build on it. To go out and achieve what you want to achieve. But also not so much obsession that you linger over every damn detail. Sometimes you just need to know when to say, You know what? I like it. Maybe it's not perfect, but it's mine. And I like it for what it is. To say, hey, I want to make my game. Otherwise you'll spend way too much time working on the tiniest things. Not saying to let bugs and errors exist. If you find something like that, fix it. Intentionally leaving a flaw is not good either.

All in all, I think it comes down to what YOU want to make. If you want to make huge, epic quests, go for it. If you want to make miniquests, do it. If you want 1000 scripts, put em in.

For me, my list of importance begins at game design.


Also, on what Moosh said. That's true. In general, we want our quests to be different. I also am not much of an enemy rush person. Not that I can't enjoy it. But I want some other kind of challenge to overcome. Puzzles.


When I started my quest, I had no intention to use more than a few scripts, now I am using like 15, cause I needed things that would let me achieve my visions. I am still creative. A lot of my puzzles don't even use script.

So, while I do agree that obsession can be a bad thing, I think it's also important to have some degree of pride in your work, regardless of what you put the most pride in.


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#11 TheLegend_njf

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 10:38 AM

I'd say obsession can go either way to be honest. It's like pretty much everything, you need a balance. You need enough obsession to stick to your vision, and build on it. To go out and achieve what you want to achieve. But also not so much obsession that you linger over every damn detail. Sometimes you just need to know when to say, You know what? I like it. Maybe it's not perfect, but it's mine. And I like it for what it is. To say, hey, I want to make my game. Otherwise you'll spend way too much time working on the tiniest things. Not saying to let bugs and errors exist. If you find something like that, fix it. Intentionally leaving a flaw is not good either.

All in all, I think it comes down to what YOU want to make. If you want to make huge, epic quests, go for it. If you want to make miniquests, do it. If you want 1000 scripts, put em in.

For me, my list of importance begins at game design.


Also, on what Moosh said. That's true. In general, we want our quests to be different. I also am not much of an enemy rush person. Not that I can't enjoy it. But I want some other kind of challenge to overcome. Puzzles.


When I started my quest, I had no intention to use more than a few scripts, now I am using like 15, cause I needed things that would let me achieve my visions. I am still creative. A lot of my puzzles don't even use script.

So, while I do agree that obsession can be a bad thing, I think it's also important to have some degree of pride in your work, regardless of what you put the most pride in.

 

Reading this made me think about something, not sure if it was your post exactly, or just a thought that came to my head. But before getting to my point, I agree with you entirely.

 

So anyways, while reading this, I started reflecting just a little on my own line of thinking. Our level of "satisfied" can be another person's nightmare. This is the sad reality of quest design. It could also be why lots of people holds such a perfect standard. Nobody wants to spend hours into something they personally love to end up become somebody else's horrible experience. 

 

I've had that experience with Souls of Wisdom (Not even counting the Temple of Cole). I had much lower standards back then, that even things such as bugs were something I'd excuse off as "I can handle that later" and still release the quest. I can pin that down to my own quest designer's immaturity there. But it's a clear example of what I thought was satisfactory did became a few people's gameplay nightmare. Some people absolutely despised Souls and despised me for it. 

 

So a few higher standards doesn't hurt, and being "satisfied" is not everything when the context of what you're designing is intended to be shared, you know, with other people. People who will have no problem judging your quest and you yourself as a legitimate quest designer who they should consider playing your content in the future. So ya, reading your post made me reflect a little on this particular thing. Being almost "too satisfied" is a problem I still have.

 

So let this post be a good counter argument in favor of "pro perfection" in response to my earlier "anti perfection" comment. There is nothing wrong with improvement.

 

But still, this topic is called "obsession with perfection", and it's something I completely believe is not a good thing. There has to be somewhere a quest designer does have to draw the line to where they feel satisfaction. High standards isn't a bad thing, it's often a good thing. But chasing perfection is not the ideal people should be trying to chase.

 

That's what I believe anyways.

 

Spoiler
 


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#12 Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 10:58 AM

I'd like to argue that in this context. Passion beats obsession almost every time. However, passion often leads to obsession. You could say I'm a little obsessed with my own projects. But the concept of "perfection" is something I have no interest in obsessing over. 

Like I said I don't think perfection exists, but if I understand what you're saying correctly then in that context 'perfection' would be subjective. As in, the mental image, the 'idea' as it exists in its most pure form, is 'perfect', and 'obsessing over perfection' is simply the act of trying to make the real product as close to that mental image as possible. Is this what you mean? Because if it is, then I think that's still very much an individual thing. Like I said earlier, what I enjoy about quest making is spending way too much time trying to make one little, perhaps insignificant detail work. It's insignificant to the project as a whole, but it matters a great deal to me, even more so than the concept of actually finishing the quest and having other people play it. Does that make sense?

 

Not that I wouldn't love to finish my quest one day - and that is ultimately a goal of mine, but right now what I enjoy about this process is actually being in the middle of a process. I don't expect everyone to see it that way, but that's also my point: we all have different motivations for spending time with ZC, but I think it's wrong to claim that one is more important than the other, or that someone is doing something wrong if they didn't actually end up making a finished, playable quest.

 

As for what you said about people looking back at their previous work with less favorable eyes, that's often the result of growth. That is how you improve, you see the mistakes you've made in the past and then you find ways to avoid that in the future. :shrug:



#13 Sheik

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 11:09 AM

I wholeheartedly agree with Robin. For some people a creative project is not about finishing the project but about "obsessing" about it and perfecting it. Abondening the project is just as much part of the project, by the way. To me ZQuesting has never seriously been about finishing any one particular project but I still have been pretty active both in the forums and creatively with ZC for the past 8 years of my PZC membership. "Just because" I never released a finished quest doesn't in my eyes diminish the experience I had making what I did. Releasing a finished quest is not even anywhere on my "to do list" and hasn't been for years. None the less I still do have ZQ projects.

And then, of course, there is the potential for a problem here in our labeling perfectionism "obsession" and everything that is implied by doing so. It mustn't necessarily be problematic, but "obsession" is psychopathological vocabulary and it is not a priori given that we want to analyze ZQuesting as a psychopathological activity.



#14 Naru

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 11:27 AM

I find this whole post a bit... I don't know. Yes, perfectionism can be troublesome, not just in regards of looks and design though. I did read a few times that members here said they don't feel like creating quests anymore because they can't keep up with the better quest-makers, but that has rather to do with anxiety and fear of negative criticism than with perfectionism. And obsessing can ruin your fun for sure, but it can also help you to focus on your quest.

A good example is Rite of the Storm, it might be not to everyone's liking since people like different things, but it is kind of flawless and perfect in my eyes. A perfect quest. I didn't play Yuurei or PoC, but I find your comment for them to be examples how looks finally start to be less meaningful a bit unfitting. I don't like the style of Yuurei, but I can't see how it isn't graphical well-made, same with PoC. Perfect graphics.

Some of the things Shane said confuse me though. "Nothing special" sure isn't very helpful and not very pleasant, but it is a normal thing to say. Like if you have seen very great screens in a contest, a normal good screen can be a small let-down. And I often think that it is better to say that a screen is good but nothing special instead of completely ignoring it. I mean the maker gets the feedback that the screen is good and that there are no problems with that. It could be improved to look more special, but there is no need to. Noone should feel depressed only because it is not special enough. It indeed is a bit of a problem though that based on really good screens people create a standard and everything we do is comparison with this standard while we often don't feel like there is a need to mention the good things we are already used to.

I also really don't like how you complain about vague critism again here. I get that you don't like it and I can understand your reasons. One of the things Anthus said is that we make these quest for fun, it isn't work and noone should feel obliged to make the quest perfect for others. The same goes for criticism and giving out your opinion, this isn't work and you should be allowed to speak your mind even if you have problems to express yourself. There are people including me that are not good at giving out thoughts. And some are shunned for it, even though they try their best. That is one of the reasons I write so much here on pureZC, not because I think that my opinion actually matters. I try my best to express myself and to improve in that regard. I am not vague with my criticism on purpose, I just can't do it better. With people I often keep quiet since I don't have much knowledge in regards of relationships and if I try to say something people often react irritated or unfriendly towards me. It makes me happy that at least here people can handle me being weird and if you say that you would prefer no more vague criticism and more quality it feels to me like you say that dumb people like me should just shut up. I know that you don't mean it like that, but I still feel hurt.

Also, is there anything wrong with having ambitions? I get that it should be more realistic to start with a miniquest, but most people rather have many vague ideas that can be easier put in a big quest, than having few concrete ideas for a miniquest. Not that I really know how ot is for others.

#15 Shane

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 12:01 PM

Once again, I am one of those people who love detail. It's more so of a passion for me than anything related to the ZC Master Race. 
 
Even though I am competitive in nature, it isn't my main focus. Most of my quest design are on a passionate level. So even if that shows the same signs of "Trying to be too pretty", then so be it. It was never my intent to be pretty just for the sake of trying to beat other quests. I am just very passionate for that kind of design. 
 
Like Moosh said above, there's more of a focus on gameplay now than ever, and this is where most of my thought goes into. I can design pretty screens without thought now, I seriously can zone out it's become such a breeze for me. But making gameplay functional screens that are designed well and not frustrating requires a lot of thought and bug testing, I'm then forced to put a little thought into the design, and I love it!
 
I'll conclude by repeating an earlier point. It's very important to love what you are doing, because if you're so hard on yourself that you cannot enjoy your work, it'll often end in failure because you'll just abandon it (I don't mean you specifically, I'm using the word you in a more general context).

Nothing wrong with how you detail screens. Again it's the problem that you are/were expected to cram something on every square grid in order to look acceptable. It's one of the few critique trends I just didn't like seeing around because it was a borderline obsession that people wanted to enforce. My style does really reflect this and when I made occasional shots in my current style back in the day I was critiqued for having bland screenshots. It's not the fact I hate seeing people detail shots, it's the fact that people seem to think detail automatically makes the perfect screen and is the only way to do so.
 
There's nothing wrong with a focus for gameplay. But I do feel gameplay is much broader than people think. Gameplay is the story you present. Gameplay is the graphics that determine this is a switch and this is a unlit torch. Gameplay is the music that immerses you as you play. It's everything in the game. Gameplay definitely requires thought, this isn't something that will come as second nature for most of us unfortunately.
 
I love what I do. But I don't get how wanting a bit of feedback is considered not loving your work? By that definition, why even show screens or submit quests? They're gonna get reviewed. You might as well take notes if there's valid points. There's times where a quest author can really use a fresh pair of eyes. The way I see it, being committed to improve means you're passionate and you love your work enough to make it better with each new day. There's no such thing as perfection but that's no excuse not to try better the next day you know?
 

I find this whole post a bit... I don't know. Yes, perfectionism can be troublesome, not just in regards of looks and design though. I did read a few times that members here said they don't feel like creating quests anymore because they can't keep up with the better quest-makers, but that has rather to do with anxiety and fear of negative criticism than with perfectionism. And obsessing can ruin your fun for sure, but it can also help you to focus on your quest.

A good example is Rite of the Storm, it might be not to everyone's liking since people like different things, but it is kind of flawless and perfect in my eyes. A perfect quest. I didn't play Yuurei or PoC, but I find your comment for them to be examples how looks finally start to be less meaningful a bit unfitting. I don't like the style of Yuurei, but I can't see how it isn't graphical well-made, same with PoC. Perfect graphics.

Some of the things Shane said confuse me though. "Nothing special" sure isn't very helpful and not very pleasant, but it is a normal thing to say. Like if you have seen very great screens in a contest, a normal good screen can be a small let-down. And I often think that it is better to say that a screen is good but nothing special instead of completely ignoring it. I mean the maker gets the feedback that the screen is good and that there are no problems with that. It could be improved to look more special, but there is no need to. Noone should feel depressed only because it is not special enough. It indeed is a bit of a problem though that based on really good screens people create a standard and everything we do is comparison with this standard while we often don't feel like there is a need to mention the good things we are already used to.

I also really don't like how you complain about vague critism again here. I get that you don't like it and I can understand your reasons. One of the things Anthus said is that we make these quest for fun, it isn't work and noone should feel obliged to make the quest perfect for others. The same goes for criticism and giving out your opinion, this isn't work and you should be allowed to speak your mind even if you have problems to express yourself. There are people including me that are not good at giving out thoughts. And some are shunned for it, even though they try their best. That is one of the reasons I write so much here on pureZC, not because I think that my opinion actually matters. I try my best to express myself and to improve in that regard. I am not vague with my criticism on purpose, I just can't do it better. With people I often keep quiet since I don't have much knowledge in regards of relationships and if I try to say something people often react irritated or unfriendly towards me. It makes me happy that at least here people can handle me being weird and if you say that you would prefer no more vague criticism and more quality it feels to me like you say that dumb people like me should just shut up. I know that you don't mean it like that, but I still feel hurt.

Also, is there anything wrong with having ambitions? I get that it should be more realistic to start with a miniquest, but most people rather have many vague ideas that can be easier put in a big quest, than having few concrete ideas for a miniquest. Not that I really know how ot is for others.

Oh boy where to begin with this...

 

First the "nothing special" comments. What's frustrating about them is that they don't really help the "obsession". It implies to focus less on mundane transition screens and more on occasional unique landmarks. These "mundane transition screens" are essential part in quest development so I don't see why we should discourage them. Instead of "nothing special" comments, how about listing what's actually wrong by its own merits? I don't see what's hard here. And look, I get not everyone is good at giving constructive criticism, I'm not either. It most certainly requires a lot to be able to give out good constructive criticism. But when I do try I try to point out very specific things that I feel could use improving. Comments like "this screen looks boring" are not helpful. Why is the screen boring? Lack of enemies? Lack of "gameplay"? No one is a mind reader here. It shouldn't be a crime to ask someone to be more specific especially if they are going to go out of their way to give their opinions.

 

The same way it shouldn't be a bad thing to seek feedback. I'm kind of getting tired of this mentality that listening to feedback which people give means you lack pride and hate yourself. Why do we even give feedback then? I don't get it. "Thanks for all that now time to not do anything about it because I think my work is perfect"? Is that how we're supposed to respond to criticism nowadays? Back then, PureZC would be down your throat for ignoring criticism now it feels like PureZC is down your throat for wanting criticism. We make our quests for fun, but what does this have to do with wanting criticism? If it's for fun and criticism ruins the point, why even give out criticism then? ???

 

Also I never said large quests are a bad thing. I said it's an obsession that people make huge quests especially with the impression that it's automatically epic and amazing due to scope. Something short can still be very ambitious.

 

Well I think I'm done with this thread. I'm clearly in the minority it seems. I just think it's possible to listen to criticism and love and have fun with your work at the same time. My point is people are obsessed with giving criticism for the sake of giving criticism. I like constructive criticism, criticism that points out actual flaws not something pulled out of thin air because there had to be something to comment on.


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