72 replies to this topic

[Zemious]

It doesn't really matter all that much if, for example, a lone Pyro will lose on average to a lone Scout of equal skill.

*toots own horn*

I must be above average because I kill more Scouts as a Pyro and die.

[Beefster]

1. In TF2, you can switch what class you're playing/what items you're using at any time, with the only cost being going back to spawn. Sometimes this cost is significant, but the ability to switch what class you're playing in the middle of the game makes things very, very different from an SSBB match where, once you pick your character, you're stuck with it till the end of the match.

2. Because of this, PvP balance isn't required in TF2. It doesn't really matter all that much if, for example, a lone Pyro will lose on average to a lone Scout of equal skill.
Let's not forget that the key metric of a multiplayer game, the only one that matters, is that things stay interesting as you move up the skill ladder. Metaknight being strictly better than everyone else in SSBB is a serious problem because this means every battle at high-level play is Metaknight vs. Metaknight. This sucks a good deal of interestingness out of the game.

The critical question is, is competitive-level TF2 still interesting? I think it is, or people wouldn't still be playing it 5 years down the road. The questions we should be asking is "How can we make TF2 more interesting?" Not just the short-term "oohs" and "aahs" the recent unlocks grant, but long-term interestingness that works on a deep level. It's a question I don't think Valve's put very much thought into ever since the Sniper vs. Spy update.

Ah, but the interestingness is best maintained when all classes are played equally in comp. You can't say there isn't a problem when every competitive team is a Medic, Demoman, 2 Scouts, and 2 Soldiers. If it works well in comp, chances are it will work well in pubs.
Balance => Compelling Gameplay

Also, TF2 tends to favor offensive playstyles over defensive ones. That's where the interestingness has its problems. Valve should work on buffing defensive playstyles to make the game as a whole more interesting... Maybe a smidge slower, but no doubt more interesting. (Brawl has the opposite problem, but that's a different story)

Also, they need to take the dispensers out of the payload carts. That would change the strategy drastically and actually make it possible to defend against a heavy rush on payload. (Well, I guess there are snipers and spies for that... But that's about it.)

To be honest, they never needed to fix the Medic or Scout. They learned their lesson from TFC and made sure to make these classes do their roles (and only their roles) well. And they succeeded.

[Zemious]

I never really knew what the Demoman was used for really. I guess he's meant to get to the point faster or hold it down for the rest of the team.

At the beginning of a competitive 6v6, you have your Demoman moving out before the rest of the team can with his sticky nades. At the beginning of a match, you can't move for about 5 seconds. You can however if you use explosive damage.
While the Demoman is hurting himself with the sticky nades, the Medic (me usually) gives the Demoman as much of an overheal buff as I can. While all this is happening, both Soldiers are hurting themselves with their rockets so they can move faster with the Equalizer. Since they're both weaker, the medic can build his uber faster.
The scouts also need an overheal buff more than everyone seeing as they roam and pick off the medic, and other stragglers.
One of the soldiers is your pocket while the other roams.


Here's a team setup I was thinking of, I'm unsure if these items are allowed in lobbies although.
Medic:
Primary: Crusader's Crossbow or Blutsauger
Secondary: Medigun
Melee: Ubersaw
Notes: I can also see the Solemn Vow for the medic fairly useful with coordination. For those who forget, it allows the medic to see an enemies life which could be useful. More often than not, you'll be with your team so you might not be meleeing a lot.

Heavy:
Primary: Tomislav
Secondary: Buffalo Steak Sandvich
Melee: Gloves of Urgently Running
Notes: The Tomislav will ready the Heavy once he gets into battle and help him get faster kills.
The gloves will help the Heavy get their faster obviously, and will aid the Medic. The Buffolo Steak is a gutsy item but I can see it being very helpful, more so than the other eatable items the Heavy can carry. I say this because you'll be constantly healed by the Medic so you won't need your Sanvitch. The Heavy is the pocket for the Medic.

Demoman
Primary: Vanilla
Secondary: Scottish Resistance
Melee: Paintrain
Notes: The demoman will play his usual role in lobbies which is to get to the point first and lay down some stickies/grenade spam. Paintrain is good for capturing faster, etc...

Soldier:
Primary: Blackbox or Vanilla
Secondary: Reserve Shooter or Vanilla
Melee: Disciplinary Action or Equalizer
Notes: The soldier will pocket with the medic at the beginning of the match which allows the medic to build faster. At the same time, he'll be whipping both the Heavy and Medic with the Disciplinary Action. He'll later roam with the Scouts and Demoman. Since he will roam, it may be a good idea to have the Blackbox with him.

Scouts:
Primary: Vanilla, always...
Secondary: Crit-a-Cola or Vanilla
Melee: Candy Cane or Atomizer
Notes: The Scouts will still roam. The Crit-a-Cola will aid in picking off people faster. The vanilla pistol will also help once the scout is forced to reload his vanilla shotgun. The Candy Cane is immensely helpful for survivability, granted you're good enough to kill someone. The Atomizer is also good for dodging rockets for that third jump.

[Moonbread]

I never really liked the Crusader's Crossbow all that much... it's useful in medieval mode, and that's about it. It needs a passive reload like the flare gun has, and then it'll be up to par. I much prefer blutsauger myself. I do like your style of using the Buffalo Steak Sandvich, and I'm glad someone else uses it. But I wouldn't really recommend the reserve shooter, its abilities aren't really worth it, the vanilla's bigger clip comes in handy waaaaaaay more often and it has a bigger clip than all of the rocket launchers anyway. I've honestly never managed to get any mini-crits with it, and besides, if someone goes up into the air, I'll just shoot them with another rocket.

[Giggidy]

Ah, but the interestingness is best maintained when all classes are played equally in comp. You can't say there isn't a problem when every competitive team is a Medic, Demoman, 2 Scouts, and 2 Soldiers. If it works well in comp, chances are it will work well in pubs.
Balance => Compelling Gameplay

If you've ever watched and/or played actual comp teams, you'd know that this loadout is a mere default. Other classes get used plenty, albeit situationally. There's a difference between an option being *literally* worthless (Pichu) and simply not being a viable option at all times (the Sniper). It's perfectly fine that there are situations where some classes are more useful than others; If not, then why have different classes at all; the landscape of comp play is just different.

Also, TF2 tends to favor offensive playstyles over defensive ones. That's where the interestingness has its problems. Valve should work on buffing defensive playstyles to make the game as a whole more interesting... Maybe a smidge slower, but no doubt more interesting. (Brawl has the opposite problem, but that's a different story)

They *have* given defensive playstyles considerable buffs. Every last one of these buffs get banned in comp because they cause matches to take too long. (Which I understand completely: Considering a single team pairoff can take up to five rounds to decide in a tournament, having each round take 45 minutes to complete is insane. But this just goes back to my earlier point about comp having different assumptions.)

Also, they need to take the dispensers out of the payload carts. That would change the strategy drastically and actually make it possible to defend against a heavy rush on payload. (Well, I guess there are snipers and spies for that... But that's about it.)

For a "heavy rush" on Blu in a payload map, the entire team (or close to it) has to all be clustered around a single location.

...Do you see the problem with this now? It's only because of the dispenser that blu is capable of winning *at all*.

*toots own horn*

I must be above average because I kill more Scouts as a Pyro and die.

Notice the caveat of equal skill level. Suicouts that just run for the objective and don't bother to fight back (that is, nearly all scouts in pubs) don't count.

Edited by Giggidy, 02 April 2012 - 12:30 AM.

[Zemious]

Someone else was saying this to me too, and I agree with the Crusader's Crossbow. I guess I was thinking that if were to tell a far away ally to stay still for a second so the Medic could launch off an arrow. This could save an ally and potentially be better than having the ally come all the way back to get healed. By coming back, you'll have to stop healing your pocket for a minute to regain the allies HP.

I'd like to see if this layout could work although. You're essentially only replacing one class for another. Soldier for a Heavy. The Heavy wouldn't slow the pace down because of his gloves, and the potential Soldier whip action.

[Beefster]

Demoman's role (right now) is spamming the chokepoints. Demoman is good because of projectile spam. Period. Sticky Bombs need to be nerfed by taking longer to prime.

The Pomson is game-breaking because it's spammable and provides too many benefits for too few risks. I refuse to use it until it's nerfed, even if it makes engineer more effective. (read: annoying)

Competitive needs more variety. Period. That's the purpose of balancing classes. I stand by what I said. They also have silly rules, but that's another story.

Defensive power is key for A/D and payload. As it stands now, BLU always has an advantage.

Classes will all pretty much get played equally in pubs. (Except Medic, who is very underplayed IMO... and Sniper is overplayed, especially since the F2P update)

[Zemious]

I played a bunch of Highlanders today, one with Stabby and one with AcesGamer. I recorded both too. The match with "AcesGamer", the match with "Stabby" known as Squares in here.

Uploading the videos soon.
Video of me and Stabby in a highlander.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=KCWXIL1dCfc

Edited by Zemious, 26 April 2012 - 02:29 PM.

[Zemious]

So, on your opinion, which do you like more between these two?
First.
Second.

[Red Phazon]

I've played this game way too much. One of the most memorable moments was when I was playing a control points map, and everyone on my team decided to go pyro. Basically there was fire everywhere and we won the round in about a minute or less.

So, on your opinion, which do you like more between these two?
First.
Second.

I kind of like the procedure mask better myself.

[Zemious]

I decided to go with the first based on other forum votes.

[Nathaniel]

Incredibly old, but credible gravedig here for a game that has since doubled in age.

 

Does anybody besides me still play Team Fortress 2?  If so, what do you guys think about the Jungle Inferno Update that came out this October?  What do you think of the four new loadouts now available for the Pyro, and the one new loadout available for the Heavy?  How do you like the six new maps?  Has anybody done any of the new contracts, with the new Conn Tracker system?

 

As for what I have to say about each of those questions, besides the first which answers itself...

 

I think the maps are very nice looking, with the jungle theme to it.  Now you are no longer limited to Borneo for that atmosphere, as much as I like that map for my favorite game type: Payload

Some of the maps are very unusual though, especially Banana Bay (Payload Race).  It's certainly a more unique experience, having a beach, carts that sort of go uphill in circles, and even underwater for a short stretch, only to end with trying to run into an incoming train (like in the forever incomplete Cactus Canyon).

 

The Pyro loadouts for me are a mixed bag.  The Dragon's Fury is certainly way different from other flamethrowers.  It works great with enough practice in the right situations, depending a lot on getting two consecutive hits to the same target to be effective.  However, it's probably the worst Pyro primary for spy checking.  Some say it's overpowered despite that.  I'm not so sure.  The Thermal Thruster is certainly fun, trading away a secondary weapon for better mobility.  The Gas Passer I never got all that good at using, and the wait time between uses is quite long.  I never got enough contract objectives done in order to try out the Hot Hand.  As for the Heavy, the second banana seems like a good substitute for the Sandvich if you prefer to be more proactive about self-healing (less healing, but faster food regeneration), rather than wait for more dire straits, and is not as good of a choice if you find it too distracting to spend more time thinking about consuming food or throwing them to another teammate.

 

The new contract system is a great improvement, as you have a branch of prerequisites and new contracts you can clearly access as old ones get finished.

 

While I think the probability of a response to this from anybody else is pretty low, it would be great to hear from others who still enjoy this game or even want to wake up to any news on it (it has been a long time, after all).  I know a few might have moved on to Overwatch from what I have heard, which I have not played and have no plans on purchasing.

[)-( Marchland Malady )-(]

Well, I still play Team Fortress 2 from time to time, and I even managed to get quite a few achievements in it. Of course, I tend to stick to Mann Vs Machine these days, even though I am looking forward to this year's Smissmas.