18 replies to this topic

[latinking]

Hi everyone. I recently found out about Zelda Classic and quickly played through an enhanced BS version of the first Zelda quest (called "NewBS 3.1 - 1st Quest"). Everything was superb with very few flaws, though I'm curious to know if the ZQuest Creator is capable of visually improving the battle against Ganon.

 

Due to the quest's graphics using BS Zelda as its foundation, I was expecting to see Ganon animated fluidly like in the SNES game (see video link below). To my surprise however, his animations consisted of single sprites at a time. What I mean is, each time he is struck with the sword, he is "stuck" in a single pose, exactly how he behaved in the original NES version. Additionally, he was missing the distinct BS laugh at the start of the battle.

 

https://youtu.be/6sl4qV0BpN0?t=71

 

Thus, I wish to know if the ZQuest Creator is capable of recreating Ganon's animations and sounds from BS Zelda? Or is there no way around Ganon being limited to 1 frame animations? Also, is it possible to change Zelda Classic's title screen to match the graphics of whatever quest you're playing? Currently, I can only choose between 2.5, modern and Classic (NES). There is no BS version of the intro explaining the plot and items.

 

Thank you for any help you can offer.

Edited by latinking, 20 April 2022 - 06:33 PM.

[Moosh]

Oh it's very possible with scripts, as is pretty much anything. NewBS 3.1 is an older quest and so doesn't have any scripted stuff in it. And while the tileset might have BS graphics, the Zelda Classic engine is still very much based on Zelda 1. The way Ganon animates is his tile cycles through his tiles every frame and then when he's hit it freezes on the current one. You can see a video where he's made visible here:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=fnox24rvD1Y

 

This isn't even accurate to Zelda 1 as it turns out. Without anything visible to study, Phantom Menace did a rough placeholder behavior for Ganon using the existing enemy movement code. And that stuck to this day. Here's how he looks in Zelda 1 when made visible with a cheat.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=MqEvZkfnIcg

 

There hasn't yet been a BS quest made with scripted mechanics, presumably since you can just emulate the original. 

 

There's no way to change the title screen from that fixed pool, outside of swapping some of the data files ZC reads from. It's not really meant to change with the current quest, just a leftover from when ZC was purely a Zelda 1 clone. Some quests do have their own title screens, but those play after the file select.

 

Edit: Whoa! Was curious how Ganon's movement looks in BS. Apparently ZC's AI is actually closer to that than the original.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=-5VAegkeQb4

[latinking]

Oh it's very possible with scripts, as is pretty much anything. NewBS 3.1 is an older quest and so doesn't have any scripted stuff in it.

Seeing as how you know "NewBS 3.1" is an old quest, do you happen to know if someone's made a more up-to-date version on ZC? If not, how difficult would it be for someone like me, a complete newbie, to simply tweak Ganon's reaction when he's hit with a sword (in order to make him appear and disappear identically to SNES BS). I can do without his laughter for now.

 

 

Edit:Whoa! Was curious how Ganon's movement looks in BS. Apparently ZC's AI is actually closer to that than the original.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=-5VAegkeQb4

 

It seems Ganon is slightly nerfed in the SNES BS version. They make him move fairly close to the player's position to reduce the randomness and make it easier to score hits.

Edited by latinking, 23 April 2022 - 02:26 AM.

[Moosh]

Seeing as how you know "NewBS 3.1" is an old quest, do you happen to know if someone's made a more up-to-date version on ZC? If not, how difficult would it be for someone like me, a complete newbie, to simply tweak Ganon's reaction when he's hit with a sword (in order to make him appear and disappear identically to SNES BS). I can do without his laughter for now.

Sadly there have been no complete BS Zelda remakes to make use of scripting. Bayta made an attempt at a remake in 2013 which I think is the closest thing I can think of but it only released one demo of the very start. Zoria talked about a BS remake as well, but nothing ever came of it. BS Zelda in ZC seems to be a niche within a niche.

 

I'd always encourage new people to try out the ZQuest editor, but writing enemy scripts isn't something most newbies can do. And just tweaking Ganon's animations a little is probably not an incentive to learn on its own. 

[Valerie]

Sadly there have been no complete BS Zelda remakes to make use of scripting. Bayta made an attempt at a remake in 2013 which I think is the closest thing I can think of but it only released one demo of the very start. Zoria talked about a BS remake as well, but nothing ever came of it. BS Zelda in ZC seems to be a niche within a niche.

It looks like Bayta did release a complete version https://www.purezc.n...e=quests&id=555
I don't know if Ganon animates correctly or not though.

[Moosh]

It looks like Bayta did release a complete version https://www.purezc.n...e=quests&id=555
I don't know if Ganon animates correctly or not though.

How the heck did I miss this? I guess I'm getting too used to disappointment at this point, assuming every project ever was cancelled.

 

Anyways, I went and scripted the thing:

[Valerie]

Anyways, I went and scripted the thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCTbfDKpT5Q

YAY! I'm very impressed!!!

Seeing as how you know "NewBS 3.1" is an old quest, do you happen to know if someone's made a more up-to-date version on ZC?

I'm currently working on a new version with a vastly expanded tileset, and other things. Here is a pic of the overworld from around 2 months ago.

[Moosh]

I'm currently working on a new version with a vastly expanded tileset, and other things. Here is a pic of the overworld from around 2 months ago.

Oh yeah, I remembered you were working on something as well, but I couldn't recall if it was a quest or just a tileset update. That overworld looks sweet.

[Valerie]

Oh yeah, I remembered you were working on something as well, but I couldn't recall if it was a quest or just a tileset update. That overworld looks sweet.

It is a remake of the 1st quest and a tileset update. Alot of the tiles won't be used in the first quest, like ones for new enemies or items.

[latinking]

Anyways, I went and scripted the thing:

This is absolutely perfect!!! With your permission, I'd very much like to add your Ganon script to "NewBS 3.1"! Unless the footage you showed is that same quest with your script already added?

 

The only other change I see myself doing to this quest later down the road is switching a few soundtracks. Some of the current tracks are new to the game which serve as references to later Zelda titles. As neat as they are, I'd prefer keeping the list faithful by excluding those new ones (ex: some of the current dungeon themes are from Zelda II). Though honestly, even without the BS Ganon script or changing a few soundtracks, I see no reason for me to go back to the NES version after discovering ZC and NewBS 3.1. So far, "Metroid Planets" is the only other PC remake of an NES game that makes the original obsolete imho.

 

I'm currently working on a new version with a vastly expanded tileset, and other things. Here is a pic of the overworld from around 2 months ago.

 

Alot of the tiles won't be used in the first quest, like ones for new enemies or items

 

Thanks to your map, I just discovered an area I completely missed. Can't wait to see your work come to fruition! And from what I understand, you're saying that while the 1st quest will be faithful to the original, the 2nd quest will feature entirely new enemies and items?

Edited by latinking, 24 April 2022 - 01:13 AM.

[Moosh]

This is absolutely perfect!!! With your permission, I'd very much like to add your Ganon script to "NewBS 3.1"! Unless the footage you showed is that same quest with your script already added?
 
The only other change I see myself doing to this quest later down the road is switching a few soundtracks. Some of the current tracks are new to the game which serve as references to later Zelda titles. As neat as they are, I'd prefer keeping the list faithful by excluding those new ones (ex: some of the current dungeon themes are from Zelda II). Though honestly, even without the BS Ganon script or changing a few soundtracks, I see no reason for me to go back to the NES version after discovering ZC and NewBS 3.1. So far, "Metroid Planets" is the only other PC remake of an NES game that makes the original obsolete imho.

Sure go ahead. I put it on the database for people to use. The example quest is NewBS 3.1, though I modified the file to start the player just before the Ganon room of level 9 with some items to beat him.

If you're looking for other Zelda 1 remakes, there's been a couple more. Origin by DarkFlameWolf is the other popular one that's finished. And if Dimi and FireSeraphim get back on it, Hyrule Fantasy also looks promising.

[Valerie]

Thanks to your map, I just discovered an area I completely missed. Can't wait to see your work come to fruition! And from what I understand, you're saying that while the 1st quest will be faithful to the original, the 2nd quest will feature entirely new enemies and items?

This quest is pretty faithful to the original, only some minor differences. I'm adding the new enemies and items so other people can use the .qst file and make their own games with the updated tiles, I currently have no plans to use them in a quest that I make. I think there is a pretty good chance I'll eventually make a 2nd quest remake after I finish this one, it will also be pretty faithful to the original 2nd quest.

[latinking]

Sure go ahead. I put it on the database for people to use. The example quest is NewBS 3.1, though I modified the file to start the player just before the Ganon room of level 9 with some items to beat him.

If you're looking for other Zelda 1 remakes, there's been a couple more. Origin by DarkFlameWolf is the other popular one that's finished. And if Dimi and FireSeraphim get back on it, Hyrule Fantasy also looks promising.

Thank you! Hopefully I'll be able to implement it without much trouble. I noticed the database description you gave to the script mentions that the fight is now "easier". Can you explain in what way Ganon's difficulty differs from the unedited NewBS 3.1 version?

[Moosh]

Thank you! Hopefully I'll be able to implement it without much trouble. I noticed the database description you gave to the script mentions that the fight is now "easier". Can you explain in what way Ganon's difficulty differs from the unedited NewBS 3.1 version?

The big thing is that in BS Zelda he can be hurt by sword beams as well as a direct sword hit. This makes it possible to fight much more defensively instead of having to approach him all the time. He also fires every 64 frames where ZC's Ganon fires every 72 with some random skips. So that makes him much more reliable to pin down on the screen when invisible. Now there's some things that are just easier in ZC than in BS Zelda as well. BS Zelda Ganon has a rather slippery hitbox it seems. When testing the fight for reference it seems a lot of times when I thought I would hit him the hits didn't connect. I don't know any good way to measure his hitbox on emulator to make it more accurate unfortunately. And then there's slash which New BS 3.1 has on by default. It's way easier to fight Ganon with slash on than with it off. That's a quest setting though.

[latinking]

The big thing is that in BS Zelda he can be hurt by sword beams as well as a direct sword hit. This makes it possible to fight much more defensively instead of having to approach him all the time. He also fires every 64 frames where ZC's Ganon fires every 72 with some random skips. So that makes him much more reliable to pin down on the screen when invisible. Now there's some things that are just easier in ZC than in BS Zelda as well. BS Zelda Ganon has a rather slippery hitbox it seems. When testing the fight for reference it seems a lot of times when I thought I would hit him the hits didn't connect. I don't know any good way to measure his hitbox on emulator to make it more accurate unfortunately. And then there's slash which New BS 3.1 has on by default. It's way easier to fight Ganon with slash on than with it off. That's a quest setting though.

 

I assume the firing rate you spoke of is the "Homing Factor 72"? I also saw the "Sword Beam Defense Off". Btw when I opened your example quest, ZQuest told me that the quest was edited on a higher version of the program. However, I have 2.55 which I thought was the latest version?

Edited by latinking, 24 April 2022 - 05:06 PM.