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Prevent save scumming to conserve non-renwable MP


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#1 Alucard648

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Posted 28 June 2021 - 08:13 AM

In my quest called 100 Rooms of Wisdom, Link has Lens of Truth, but MP it uses is supposed to be scarce and non-renewable resource. But critics reported me that they can abuse save/load to conserve MP and cheat all the way to final levels, where Lens lose his cheating power. I have tried Game->Save on turning off Lens, but beta testers reported very long, all-halting save times. Tried calling Game->Save in OnExit global script, but those crazy guys discovered that OnExit global script does not run if ZC was terminated via close button, allowing to reload last save with spent MP still intact, which is not good. Any thoughts? 2.53.1 beta 55


Edited by Alucard648, 28 June 2021 - 08:14 AM.


#2 Mitchfork

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Posted 28 June 2021 - 01:04 PM

This is an interesting design question but I don't believe this is possible the way you want it to work.  Like you found out, "OnExit" only triggers if you exit from a game over or F6.  There's no way for a script to detect and interrupt the player accessing a program menu in ZC.  Even if it could, you could open the task manager and kill the program to get around this.

 

You could try to script some sort of auto-save behavior when the Lens is disabled.  I think this will become really intrusive and will create annoying lags for your players, though.  Additionally, it can still be circumvented if the player quits during the Lens uptime, so it doesn't really solve the problem.


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#3 Emily

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Posted 28 June 2021 - 01:47 PM

^ As mitch pointed out, not possible if they are going to go to the lengths of killing the program unless you constantly save during gameplay, which would render the quest unplayably laggy.

 

Frankly, the premise of having the lens be completely limited in use with mp being non-renewable.... sounds absolutely terrible.



#4 Alucard648

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Posted 28 June 2021 - 03:54 PM

^ As mitch pointed out, not possible if they are going to go to the lengths of killing the program unless you constantly save during gameplay, which would render the quest unplayably laggy.

 

Frankly, the premise of having the lens be completely limited in use with mp being non-renewable.... sounds absolutely terrible.

The problem is the quest itself is a long sequence of puzzles and getting stuck on a single one, either due to player`s fault, or bad design, puts player`s progress on complete halt, just like in most adventure games. One of reviews of this quest criticized on lack of any kind of limited hint system. Here is the quote from this review:

3. Some sort of hint currency or scoring is often used in puzzle games in order to get additional hints if you're struggling on a particular puzzle, the games that inspired this one usually have that (granted, often by requiring you to watch an ad).


Edited by Alucard648, 28 June 2021 - 07:21 PM.


#5 Emily

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Posted 29 June 2021 - 12:13 AM

In that case, a scripted hint system would be FAR more efficient, and could have a forced save built into the hint system. i.e. you press some button or read some sign and it asks you if you want to buy a hint; if you buy it, it immediately saves the fact that you bought it, *before* it reveals the hint. That would prevent savescumming. A lens with limited MP doesn't only give you limited number of hints, but also a limit on how long you can view the hint, which just seems TERRIBLE for the purpose.

 

Beyond that, frankly I don't think savescum-proofing is the biggest deal. If someone is to the point where they feel the desire to savescum, clearly they aren't enjoying it enough to take the challenge as presented. With an anti-savescum in place, such players might simply quit playing rather than continuing with a savescum.


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#6 Deedee

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Posted 29 June 2021 - 03:01 AM

The only thing the player is cheating when they get a hint is themselves. If they want to cheat themselves out of the experience, let them.



#7 Alucard648

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Posted 29 June 2021 - 05:30 AM

In that case, a scripted hint system would be FAR more efficient, and could have a forced save built into the hint system. i.e. you press some button or read some sign and it asks you if you want to buy a hint; if you buy it, it immediately saves the fact that you bought it, *before* it reveals the hint.

As I said, I already tried that, and immediately got negative comment about very long and intrusive save time, when getting hint.



#8 Jamian

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Posted 29 June 2021 - 11:38 AM

There doesn't seem to be any way to make this work smoothly. If anything, the great lengths taken to prevent the player from "save scumming" might encourage people to try and do it anyway. It'll also always be possible to just ask the solution to someone who's already beaten the puzzle, or to watch a LP if there is one. I would just invite the player to attempt to play the quest as intended.



#9 Alucard648

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Posted 29 June 2021 - 12:40 PM

There doesn't seem to be any way to make this work smoothly. If anything, the great lengths taken to prevent the player from "save scumming" might encourage people to try and do it anyway. It'll also always be possible to just ask the solution to someone who's already beaten the puzzle, or to watch a LP if there is one. I would just invite the player to attempt to play the quest as intended.

So there is dilemma: should I remove Lens from the quest or leave as is?




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