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Magic Magic containers Magic items

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#1 Reflectionist

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 02:53 AM

Hey, guys, I just had some quick questions about magic and magical items in ZC. Since I'm still conceptualizing, assume the newest stable public build... all I know is 2.50.

So...

1. Is it possible to have Magic Container pieces that work like Heart Pieces? Would this be buggy if I still wanted to use the 1/2 Magic "Curse" like a magical version of the Blue Ring? What about a Magic Ring (I'm amending items to make magic more relevant and common)


2. What makes the Wand / Magical Rod (?) / Book unique from other flame or ranged weapons? Why have it instead of the fire brang? Could it be used as a stun item, like a primitive Ice Rod? I love the idea of being able to get the Book and not only have that upgrade the Wand's magic, but simulate the Book of Mudora using String Control Codes...epic. just can't quite justify the Wand.

3. If I had the Golden Arrows and Magical Boomerang actually consume magic, could I make them revert to lower-level items that don't use magic so the player isn't without a Bow or Brang in the middle of a dungeon?

4. Since the nature of my magic upgrades is going to change so drastically, I'll need to edit the magic use on a lot of the magic using items. No problem...except for the Lens of Truth. Is it possible to control the -Rate- at which magic drains while using it? I see how MUCH is being drained, but if I can't edit the rate, the Lens may become daunting to use; a complete magic vampire. Its easy to plan around, but it'll be obvious to the player and take them out of it.

Thats all off the top of my head for now. Thanks for listening to my rambles!!

Edited by Reflectionist, 24 May 2017 - 02:56 AM.


#2 Jamian

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 04:56 AM

1) Yes, with a script. You create a specific item slot for those, and your script gives you a real magic container once you've collected X of them. I don't see why it would it cause problems with half magic.

 

2) You don't have to wait for the wand magic to come back, unlike the boomerang, so it may be a more convenient weapon in some cases. It could be used as a stun item if you configure its damage and the enemy weaknesses accordingly. 

 

3) Only with a script.

 

4) You can't control the rate, but you can make it use very little magic instead.



#3 Naru

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 06:19 AM

1. Magic Containers are already possible in ZC and as such they work with magic-upgrades, similiar to heart containers and less damage through rings. For gaining the container through obtaining pieces first you could just fake heart-pieces with string-codes and place-holder-items.

 

2. The magic of the wand can be reflected with mirrors and there are triggers for wand-magic, reflected magic and wand-hit. The wand-book-flame is the 3rd flame trigger I think (blue candle 1st, red candle 2nd, book 3rd and Din's fire 4th?). And if flame-triggers insta-activate (quest-rule) not only the book-flame, but also the magic itself will trigger flame-triggers. That can be problematic since in that case a "ice"-wand with a book-flame that has a ice-sprite will still trigger the candle-triggers while a fire-boomerang cannot since it triggers the boomerang triggers and not flame triggers.

 

4. While you can make it use very little magic it still consumes a lot (or was that only the Cane of Byrna?).



#4 Lüt

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 06:56 AM

Regarding #3, you can edit the subscreen so the player can select multiple levels of the same item. Fun in the Sun 2 did exactly that, where the Magic Boomerang actually consumed magic, and you could select either the Wooden Boomerang or the Magic Boomerang at any time from the subscreen. Then, when your magic was gone, you couldn't use the Magic Boomerang, but you could still choose the Wooden Boomerang from your inventory. If you don't mind the player having to manually select their items instead of having them automatically revert to a lower-level item, you can avoid a script, as well as provide more gameplay options at the same time. Plus, if items keep swapping every time the player loses magic or gains magic, the back-and-forth would probably get annoying anyway.

 

And regarding #4, it's a commonly disliked design decision on behalf of the programmers. The magic drain rate for constant-use items is absurd, to the point that most people consider those items entirely useless if they were to use magic at all. 1 is the lowest magic rate setting you can use, and even with, say, 16 magic containers and the half magic upgrade, your magic will be gone in a few seconds at the longest. The 3 big items that have that problem are Lens of Truth, Cane of Byrna, and Magic Boots. It's common for people to disable magic drain for the Magic Boots, but you can't do it for the other two without making the items disproportionately powerful. What the game needs, but doesn't have, is the ability to enter decimal amounts for magic drain rates.

 

However, it's not to say such a thing can't be scripted: for example, Better Cane of Byrna. Using this, you can set the magic cost to a decimal (perhaps 0.25 as recommended), as well as choose whether or not the cane makes you invincible (as it originally did in Z3). That script only applies to the cane, but the fractional magic cost function could be ported to items like Lens of Truth and Magic Boots as well.

 

You're on your own for that though.



#5 Reflectionist

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 10:05 AM

I think if I used the Cane of Byrna, I'd still call it Nayrus love. Heh.

This is all super helpful, though. The only reason I was thinking of #4 is because I do plan on giving out a magic ring for constant refilling. Thats an OP kind of thing, so I wanted magic to be a slightly bigger deal.

I love String Control Codes more every day.

Hey, if I were able to PayPal someone for their services, would there be takers for scripting through a couple of ideas with me? I keep *trying* to think of things that already use ZQ's framework, but I always get "scripting" as an answer.

It's cool, thats the answer, thats what it takes. I just suck at that stuff. Way better at concepting.

I'm really only sold on the Book as an item. I love how it works in Z1, but I've already got The Candle and Din's Fire. (I dont think Brang is necessarily going to be fire, too.)

I assume it takes more than setting damage to 0 to make it be an Ice Rod?

I guess having the Lantern is an early enough use for Magic. I can make it use very little magic, right?

I like that Byrna script, with the decimal thing... I guess maybe my problem is I feel too tied to the 3 Goddess Spells from OoT.

Any suggestions for generally making magic more relevant??

Lut, I agree with the switching back and forth being annoying, but if I can make these upgrades be "enchantments" on existing items rather than new items themselves, the only difference you'll notice is the presence or absence of sparkle fx. And if you have completed Farore's Trial of the Soul, you'll have near constant magic regen anyway. It's a little OP, sure, but its also very late game.

Edited by Reflectionist, 24 May 2017 - 10:22 AM.


#6 Reflectionist

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 10:37 AM

Please excuse the double post, from a dumb smart phone it's a little necessary.

Going beyond Magic a bit, my goal is to treat Items like Alton Brown chooses cookware. No unitaskers. Even my 3Pendants/Pearls/SpiritualStone items work as other ZC items.

The Pendant of Power grants Link "Eldin's Intimidation", a Wealth Medal. Wisdom gets "Lanayru's Perception", a Stone of Agony. Courage is "Faron's Determination", literally the slowest heart ring I can possibly put into a game. These effects would all be a little nerfed, but it certainly makes the plot MacGuffins interesting. If it doesn't have multiple uses, its out. If I can do it easier with something else, its out. Does that make sense?

That way, more gameplay, less Legend of Zelda: Subscreen of Epilepsy.



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