120 replies to this topic

[Aevin]

I feel like both Aevin and Russ have moved on from PZC,

I won't comment on the rest of this, but I feel the need to absolutely clarify that this is not the case. I'm running events, fixing site bugs, dealing with stuff like this, am reasonably active in Discord servers run by various community members, am an active quest developer, and more. And I know that Russ is equally invested. I won't deny feeling some burnout, and I'm not very active in the PureZC Discord server, partially because as it stands, I have little enthusiasm for the place. I really want to change that, though.

[Nate]

Its a shame to hear people are personally blaming Aevin. For what its worth, I wasn't ever pointing my finger at you in specific, Aevin. Just the situation as a whole. I don't think its fair to put yourself in such a hot seat either, Anthus. I've been a difficult member on the Discord in the past. I'm aware of that. And I genuinely do want to apologize for issues I've caused previously. For what its worth, I've tried to tone things down and be less trolly. Community members don't need that, and the staff (many who I've known pretty well for 15 years) certainly don't need that.

 

I'm glad you guys are waiting it out instead of just archiving it. Whatever you end up choosing to do as a collective, I'm sure you have your reasons and I'll be as supportive as possible. Thanks for hearing me out in my rambles. 

 

I don't think any staff should take personal blame. I understand burnout. I understand wanting to take the easy way out, in this specific scenario. I think fresh staff blood would definitely help. I certainly don't think anyone needs to be stepping down or personally attacked.

Edited by Nate, 12 March 2020 - 09:04 PM.

[Anthus]

I won't comment on the rest of this, but I feel the need to absolutely clarify that this is not the case. I'm running events, fixing site bugs, dealing with stuff like this, am reasonably active in Discord servers run by various community members, am an active quest developer, and more. And I know that Russ is equally invested. I won't deny feeling some burnout, and I'm not very active in the PureZC Discord server, partially because as it stands, I have little enthusiasm for the place. I really want to change that, though.

 

 

I should have been more clear, but I meant within the PZC discord specifically, not the website. I know you do a lot for the site, and I think everyone is grateful we don't have to sacrifice six goats to summon LtM every time one line of code breaks.

[Shane]

For what it's worth, I don't personally blame anyone for this. I think the situation itself is a complete mess, and that's what happens when there's three forces at work those being the current userbase, the staff and those that feel disenfranchised. It's ideal to have all of them happy, but honestly I feel Current Events planning to go isn't going to resolve this and just worsened the situation? Current Events can work, it just needs to be moderated and/or have clear, established guidelines as well as making sure it doesn't accidentally leak into the general chats. I have took out my anger on Aevin with one post, but that was mostly in response to a response to me. We've talked things out in private and I think we have a clearer understanding of one another. I hope to see Current Events still up personally, I have no stake in it as I'm a moderate user, but it's no lie there has been casual debates and conversations there that I enjoyed. It's less anti-minority then people are giving it credit for and it will be if guidelines are brought up rather than this being a lawless part of PureZC.

 

And Orithan, my leave is not malicious. I never threatened to trash talk Pure so cut that out please. Let's not make things worse than they are with fake information. Yes, I have vented, but it's only been a day, emotions are high on both sides and things like this don't help in the slightest.

[ShadowTiger]

I know I've been kind of distant from the wonderful people here, much to my chagrin, but what was the major hold-up again against making more separate channels where people could keep to their own separate preferences and heavily moderate spill-over as necessary?  I'd like to offer a suggestion instead of making direct comments towards the overall outcome of this decision.

 

In another Discord server I go to, they have a lot of "Roles" that give people permissions to view individual channels.  They have a fair amount of channels, and people assign themselves roles based on what they want to see.  If someone wants light-hearted friendly debate, there's one channel for that.  It's easy to moderate because people know what to expect from it, and anything that gets too out of hand automatically means they should've signed up for the heavier debate room.  The heavier debate room is barely moderated, and if something awful happens in there, they only have themselves to blame and can't go running to the staff for help.  So only a few people go there and the people with less thick skin stay out, or they just watch and don't say anything, and once again, only have themselves to blame if they don't like what they see. 

 

There's a channel for Memes and once-and-done funny things, and if someone wants to seriously comment on one or spark a discussion, there are already channels for it.

 

It really isn't that hard to moderate.  Three people do it juuuust fine on their own because each channel is well-defined, and it quickly becomes obvious when things get out of hand or have to be taken somewhere else. 

 

I really don't know what the schematics for the original arrangement of the Discord were, but if it's causing people pain, there's no reason why things need to stay the same.

 

People really enjoy having an area to chat about things, and what I'm afraid of is that having fewer options rather than more options will just condense snippets of the awkward stuff into the same areas as the stuff everyone else wants to talk about, and also make it harder to follow individual conversation streams.  It means it'll also be harder to moderate because things are going a mile a minute. 

 

I know it's not easy being staff -  You want the best for everyone all the time, but you can't make everyone happy.  But you can try to give people a chance to make themselves happy, in a way, and hopefully in a way that doesn't negatively impact other people. 

 

I'm not going to go into further details because I don't think this is my personal podium, but I'll leave the concept open for criticism or further conceptualization.  I probably just don't know how to conclude this post.

[Chris]

I don't know how the server changed since I left, but for me the strong diversity made it often quite difficult to enjoy the server. Because of that I kinda like the idea to limit the server a bit more to ZC.

I loved the discussions in CE, I highly enjoyed talking to people like Robin and Anthus in there, but moderation was difficult, more troublesome discussions resulted often in complains, making people uncomfortable, while simpler discussions often spilled over into other channels, too harmless for CE for some but still too uncomfortable for some others.

The biggest issue for me was the general channel though. There were many memes and jokes that were very nonsensical to me and they made me paranoid while trying to adjust to it. I was often on edge and ended up just doing my thing, being one of the guys that brought more degenerate stuff to CE while often spilling over CE discussions into general.

Over time I felt more and more uncomfortable while I knew that there where also many people that felt uncomfortable because of me. So I left. I think there are quite a few others like me, people always on edge because they love certain elements of the pure community while hating others without a way to avoid them. If that part could be improved, it would be wonderful, but I have hight doubts about how to manage that.

I also always missed the ZC element at times. There was the development corner, it was kinda dry and I couldn't understand it all, but beside some annoying copyright discussion, it was a nice ZCish corner. Beside that it seemed to me like the ZC element was rather limited. They just made their own servers and instead of support and encouragement it often seemed more like concurreny where you have to protect your ideas.

I hope this post is useful in some way.

[Nicholas Steel]

I was reading through and liking comments I agreed with up to the 26th post... then everybody started making way too big posts for me to read all the way through :/

Edited by Nicholas Steel, 13 March 2020 - 06:25 AM.

[klop422]

I don't know if this adds anything, but I was thinking about this last night, and I'll admit my previous reply painted a more positive picture of my experience with the channel than I have had. I'm not denying there're issues with CE (which, as others have said, might be improved with specific, well-defined rules) which I'd, uh, failed to mention in my previous post. For what it's worth, I've had some interesting conversations there (the two main ones that come to mind being with Robin - one on the subject of hate crimes, and the other on racism).

 

I will say that my experience is fairly similar to Chris' with the general channel (and sometimes it's similar with CE or the other channels) - often people are having conversations I don't really get. Specific memes/in-jokes, or just chat about stuff I don't personally care about. Which is fine, of course, people can talk about what they want - I'm just considering whether this might be a related issue. For me, the solution/compromise (as others have mentioned) seems to be more clearly-defined channels/rules for the channels.

 

Not sure if this reply was helpful at all, but here it is

[Timelord]

[...]

 

So after reading all these replies, this is my conclusion. We may have made a mistake to outright make this new rule prohibiting these discussions without A) presenting an alternative, and rules at the time that are detailed, and B) making it even harder for people to feel like they can talk about stuff.

 

[...]

 

But here's the thing, and I think we can all relate to this. The staff are just burned out.

 

[...]

 

I'm not quitting, or stepping down either, but I've considered starting a poll to see if you guys think I should (not here, but as its own thread). This is totally a good time to mention we are hiring btw. I have been here for literally half my life, 15 years this past January. I can count on one (okay, maybe both) hands the amount of people who have been here longer. I may not be the most assertive, or articulate, but trust me when I say, I've seen a lot, and this is probably the biggest shit show since the 2008-10 debacle,

 

[...]

 

I did not intend to post further here, however, I wanted to note that this happens every time that the site staff remove a facility because you are unable to govern it appropriately.

 

This is the same sort of response that you had when you killed the LP and Stream forum boards, because you were unable to moderate them. What happened then?

 

A lot of aggrieved people left, and even when you restored those boards later, you had lost those people forever. Rash decisions, made or whatever reason, without first checking the pulse of your overall userbase will do this, every single time.

 

This is where the concept of special inclusivity falls on its face--and why it sets a dark tone to you decisions. Is it wrong to want to cater to everyone, ad to provide the most neutral format possible Certainly not. You do however need to look at the abstract there:

 

When 97% of tour users want feature-X, ad 3% want feature-X removed.

 

Does that special inclusivity give that 3% of the userbase the right to dictate that it must be removed?

 

I run into this same trap on a regular basis. One or two people bitch or rant about something that the vast majority of users want us to include, or to use. Depriving the majority, simply to serve the minority is not balanced, or just. Taking their views into consideration is certainly required, but whatever bias bands together that minority--in my latest case, people who dislike NES graphics comes to mind--the overwhelming percentages must show us what the people using our services desire from them.

 

As soon as you stop focusing on the community as a whole, and instead put the interests of one group--including purely staff interests--above the rest, you will see backlash, and often deservedly so.

 

All this notwithstanding, I certainly understand the weight of being overburdened, and understaffed.
 

[ShadowTiger]

So, majority rule, basically.  The obvious majority, at least.  People still lose out that way, but the numbers will vary based on the majority opinion. Populations can shift and vary as time goes on, too.  That needs to be taken into account at some point.   Hey, no one ever said this was easy.    Still, let it be said that everyones' opinions and concerns are appreciated.  If there wasn't something valuable to be had by everyone, people wouldn't care enough to comment.

 

So if we give people a way to have a choice, that means everyone gets their own say in it. It's just a matter of the execution of the grand plan.

 

-----------

 

Some people are apparently thinking of an opt-in system where everything still exists, and you can pick and choose what you want to see and what you don't.  What happens then is on you, because you made the active and deliberate choice to expose yourself to something and continue to expose yourself to it.

 

I mean, let's face it - We live in interesting times.  There are distasteful things everywhere.  I just walked down the street and saw a flock of birds with gang colors on them attacking each other.  (Bluebirds vs Red-breasts or something.  So Politically Incorrect.  Woo.) So if we have a channel that appeals to everyone, we can just hide what we don't want to see.  If we get curious and look over the fence, and have taken the time and effort to give ourselves the Role / Permissions to actually do so, that's on us.  We're all mature enough to make our own choices.  At present, topics of great importance and controversy are all merged into the same channel.  Of course people would find that to be problematic.  So if there are different kinds of places for different kinds of conversations, people can do their own thing on their own side of the fence.

Some people want to post memes. 

Some people want to talk about intellectual topics of a politics nature that affects someone's country.
Some people want to talk about intellectual topics of a social nature that affects someone's personal or mental well-being.
Some people want to be edgy.

I know that there's some sort of venn-diagram here that needs to be taken into account where topics intercept.  No system will ever be perfect.  I also know that with more channels comes less activity in each.  When there were just two channels (General and CurrentEvents)  there was less choice, but you felt like almost anything could be discussed between the two.  Creating more channels (Even if it's just two or three.) can divide the amount of potential conversation between them.  Plus, activity might start to die down a bit once people realize they've gotten what they want and there's nothing to protest against.  It's standard human nature.

[David]

I just wanted to say a few words on the matter. I've been reading all the replies that have been said in this thread and have read and participated in many of the discussions regarding the changes that have occurred in some private servers on Discord. I will admit that when the announcement first came out, which the admins collectively had a big role in proposing along with support from some in the staff team, I was hopeful that it would be well-received and that a large proportion of the active community would appreciate the changes. Really, the main goal with the changes was to attempt to improve the Discord server in a way that made it feel more comfortable for everyone in there and to make it a place the entire community would enjoy.

 

However, I do have to admit fault with this situation. I feel similar to Anthus in that I feel like I did not think enough about the issue at hand and the consequences of these actions despite giving my complete approval and go-ahead for the changes in the first place. And I won't deny these things. I definitely did not expect the kind of reaction to the changes that we have received here. While reading everyone's replies in this topic and reading the discussions and posts from more private venues, I made a big effort to see where people were coming from with regards to their issues with the changes as they were presented. It's important to me that I hear and listen to everyone's concerns and take them into consideration. I know what it feels like when it appears as though I have no say whatsoever in something, and I certainly do not want anyone in the community to feel that way because it sucks. As such, I would like to thank everyone who has participated in these discussions by giving their thoughtful viewpoints and their feedback on these changes. It's definitely hard to get disapproval as the major response to changes in policy that were originally perceived to be beneficial as a whole, but that's why constructive feedback is really valuable, and in this case it helped me see a different perspective on the issues and I'm grateful for that.

 

We definitely had quite a bit of people coming out in approval and support of these changes and it's great to see a positive response too, but, as I've mentioned, when you have a very large proportion of the active community being on the other side of the aisle I think it's imperative to take what they say into consideration too. I'm a big fan of meeting people halfway and finding a positive way to compromise on controversial issues. I think we can all agree that some changes to the PureZC Discord server were necessary given some of the state of things. I do think what people have been suggesting thus far would be a good way to compromise and come together on this issue. If we were to keep the current events channel on Discord (as an aside, I would want to rename the channel to something more clear), there needs to be some clear and transparent guidelines for how things are going to work and how moderation will primarily function in the Discord server. I think for too long now we've been a bit too wishy-washy and too inconsistent with how punishments are dealt out in the server. A system of better escalation should be in place so that the first infraction results in essentially a warning for most cases, which allows that communication to be established with the member that's causing problems. And of course, if said person causes more trouble then we'll have to escalate punishments beyond just a warning. But I think having that first step where we communicate where we think someone went wrong with their behavior would be really useful in making people understand what happened and would help mend the disconnect between the community and staff. Another idea people have mentioned and have been toying with is to have an opt-in system for a channel intended for serious and mature discussions. To be clear, the opt-in would be something that all members would have the ability to do freely, though if someone causes too many problems they might lose access to the channel for some time. I would also not be opposed to such a system if people agree that it's a nice idea. It allows for people who want to discuss like adults some of the more difficult issues of today's world to do so in an environment where everyone else in there also wants to do the same. The people that don't want to participate in such discussions would remain in all the other channels that our Discord server offers.

 

Whichever way we end up going, I want to say that I would do the best I can in terms of moderating the Discord server. I know I don't always have the best track record in regards to always having the free time dedicated for the site, but I do want to improve on this aspect and have better enthusiasm for the server in general like Aevin mentioned. I want to give back to the community that I care so much about that has been a part of my life for so long, so I will do my best to be a more engaged member in general. Though I think I've been improving in the aspect recently, I would like to continue improvement and get to know everyone better. Being promoted to an admin has given me some new motivation in that regard and I really hope to do my best with that.

 

I truly believe if the staff and the community come together with regards to this tricky and controversial topic, we will end off in a much better place. There's quite a few issues right now but we can improve things and create a welcoming environment for all in this community that we're a part of. I know I'm always the optimistic one (sometimes possibly too much), but I do want to believe that a compromise will be reached and frankly what we've all discussed so far is a great start. I urge everyone to keep providing thoughtful feedback with all of this and discuss on the various ideas presented. This is a wonderful community filled with wonderful people and I know we can do this.

[Shane]

I definitely approve the opt-in system, I definitely think it's the best compromise. Awesome post, David.

[Nate]

Definitely agree with the opt-in system. Hide the channel entirely unless they specifically opt-in. I like ShadowTiger's idea of user roles to achieve that. Then its not marked as NSFW, it just doesn't show up as if it didn't exist if the user doesn't specifically opt-in. 
 

This adds the perk that staff can remove people from the channel too, if they show themselves to break the ground rules or can't behave appropriately. 

[Adem]

Hot damn, y'all.

 

I'm a longtime community member. I'm also former staff. I admittedly have some bias in the main discussion, because I fit the bill as someone who hasn't felt super comfortable in Discord.

 

Those things aside, I am absolutely appalled by the petty public callouts, and the blatant degrading of staff in this thread. There is so much work that goes into keeping this place running, and people love the staff until they suddenly don't. I've been on the receiving end of it, and it's ugly. The staff here is so kind, so giving, and so receptive to feedback. Give them some credit where credit is due.

 

If someone wants to make the case that we should keep Current Events, fine. If someone else agrees with the overall decision, but disagrees with how it was reached/communicated, great. Feedback is how the administrative team learns, and it's really helpful. But anyone who results to insults and ultimatums only demonstrates that they lack the emotional intelligence to participate in the discussions for which they are advocating.

 

Please. Remember that there are real people behind these screens. That goes for everyone here, y'all.

 

I'm feeling really disappointed in this community right now. 

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

The idea of removing currentevents at all, is based on the idea that PureZC has not been inclusive. This is either an error on staff's part, or it is intentional, I do not know, though I will say that given how Aevin has to ask people to bring up examples of positive conversations in currentevents, that proves that he has no idea what he's arguing against, and that may be an indication that this was indeed done in error.

 

This is simply untrue, and I have yet to post in this thread because I have felt that this singles out a small portion of people as opposed to being a legitimate turn towards helping others feel more comfortable in the server. You don't make 2 people more comfortable if it requires removing a channel a huge part of the community clearly enjoys, if those two people have an issue with the channel, they don't have to go in there, and it really is as simple as that. If you do not have staff member who are willing to moderate it, then you need to hire some people who are. Again, they are not hard to find, I know at least 5 different people who have said they would like to moderate just currentevents.

 

The main reason I have stayed out of this conversation is that I have been deeply hurt by it. This may not be completely rational on my part, and I admit that, but this is very much the reason why I have been so angry in other channels, as several staff members will be aware of. This ties back to the creation of currentevents, which happened pretty much almost instantaneously as me and some of the other remnants from the IRC channel decided to come over. On IRC, we had always had an open nature, people could talk about the things that concerned them, and the only times this was an issue was when people were trying to have multiple conversations going on at the same time in the same channels. Simple issue that could have been solved by having multiple channels, of course.

 

When we moved over to Discord, it didn't take long before staff members that had never before been active in chat, decided that we needed to be singled out and placed into the 'controversial channel', because apparently having adult conversations is too much for some people. I was annoyed with this back then, because I felt like I was being singled out there too - we even had staff members openly joking about how it was the '#robinchannel', so while I was assured several times that this was not the case, we all know that it played a part. But it was fine, currentevents was not moderated in such a way that people's conversations would be limited, and that convinced me that you really did just want to help out the people who didn't want to see discussions about Trump or China or whatever in general. And that is completely understandable.

 

So now when I see one of those same staff members make a thread saying that not only are they closing currentevents down, but they are doing so with the excuse that this is a push towards inclusivity. That is so illogical that I don't even know where to begin. It has already been said a hundred times, so that's okay. But you need to understand that when you say this, it makes me think that you think that I, and everyone else who participated in that channel, is in any way against letting people be comfortable with themselves. You say you're concerned with making people feel comfortable in this community, but how do you think it feels when you're essentially labeling me and anyone else who participated in that channel as transphobes? Without any reasonable excuse. Heck, you even have a user who was previously banned for being toxic, straight up implying that I may be a transphobe in this very thread, and bringing me up by name. The example they cite is an inside joke this person does not understand, but even then they say that even if it is a joke, it 'isn't a matter to be joked about'.

 

Tim's ban was similar, you banned him for making a joke that you understood to mean something other than what he was actually saying. You misunderstood a joke and assumed he's a transphobe so out with him. These are the kinds of actions that makes me wonder if you really give a shit about making this place inclusive, because despite the fact that you claim that 'so many people' have complained about this for long time, other than banning Tim for a joke you misunderstood, you have done absolutely nothing to actually put an end to the shit that happens in that channel that ALL of us agree is not fit for it. I have even told you personally Aevin, that there are things that have happened in there recently that you should have done something about. And these things have NOTHING to do with serious conversations, we are talking about one person posting content that clearly is not in any way a serious conversation or an invitation to such. And I'm not saying I have a huge problem with this myself, but I do have a problem with the lack of moderation OF that, if THAT is what you're going to use as an excuse to be like 'see! Currentevents IS bad!'

And you already did that, you posted to this guy's spam in there, that came as a direct result of this thread, as 'evidence' as to why the channel is so bad. And you wonder why people are mad? Seriously?!

 

Yeah, this issue made me really angry. I do not know if I have ever felt about Pure like I do right now. I am still deeply hurt by the horrible implications of the OP and I think if you want to turn this ship around, it will require immense personal reflection on behalf of staff, along the lines of Anthus' fantastic post up there. You need to realize what a colossal mistake you just did, and you also need to take in over yourself just how much this has hurt and offended what I would otherwise argue are great contributors to this community.

 

It is shameful and disgusting, and I do hope you understand that I say this with the best of intentions. You are acting like dictators of a community that should belong to all of us. You should see yourself as custodians, because that's what you are. This isn't your forum, you have inhereted it. Realize that what you are in control over, is not just your property, it is the place where many of us got to know each other. It is not just a community in the sense that it is a forum on the internet, this place is filled with real people some of which have spent more than half their lives in this place, and many of us have grown up together. And you need to let us continue to have conversations like normal human beings, and shutting down currentevents is the opposite of that.

I simply cannot overstate how much and how deeply this hurt me, and I know I am not alone in that.

Edited by Migokalle, 13 March 2020 - 01:14 PM.