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So You Want To Make A Quest?


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#1 Old-Skool

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 04:11 PM

The Zelda franchise is booming, especially what with all the huzzah surrounding its 25th anniversary last year, and the release of titles in recent years like Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword. So, maybe you came here because you are a big fan of those games with only a fleeting knowledge of the top-down traditional Zeldas. Maybe you're already a big fan of the original style and want to make your own Zelda game.

Either way, we can help. There are however quite a few things you have to understand about the program, how it works, and what you can and cannot do with it.


#1: What is Zelda Classic? Zelda Classic can refer either to the program specifically used to play custom quests, or to the entire system of programs which include Zelda Classic and Zquest. For sake of ease, we're going to call the quest player program "ZC".

Though you are welcome to use it as one, Zquest is not a "Zelda-game-making device". What it is, is a highly advanced editor for the original Nintendo Legend of Zelda. You can take that as literally as making different dungeons and changing the overworld, or as far as giving the game really pretty graphics and new items. However, deep down, no matter what you create in it, It will still be the original 1986 (not 1987) Legend of Zelda at its core.

#2: I want to make Skyward Sword 2!! Amazing!! A fan-sequel to Skyward Sword, shown from a topdown view like the old Zeldas? You simply MUST tell me more! How are you going to have Link ride a loftwing in this game? Will you replace the graphics of the raft to do it?

This partially goes back to what I was saying before. This is a highly advanced editor, for the original Legend of Zelda.

IPB Image
This game.

Not only is it gonna be extremely hard for you to build anything similar to a 3D Zelda for very obvious reasons, but there's also a minor issue of graphics. Now, Zelda Classic gives you the power to turn the above screenshot into something more like this:

IPB Image

But if you're just starting out, you're not going to make anything this pretty-looking. It's a screenshot of a Metroid game that uses special settings for each screen so that you fall as if in sideview, and use the Rocs feather to jump. Its creation involves extremely clever manipulation of the physics of the original Zelda, as well as the use of special items and features used in versions that are not yet available in an official release. It requires a very advanced knowledge of how the program and the editor work.

Someday, you might make a quest that has pretty graphics, but you should never, ever attempt it in your first try. If you open up Zquest and have to ask how to "use the better graphics", you're probably not ready to anyways, because I guarantee you won't know what you're doing.

#3: You should add scrolling like in Zelda 3, and make it so you press a button to talk to people, and a way to have fmv cutscenes

Your quests, at their cores, are the original Legend of Zelda.

IPB Image
This game.

The way things are coded, some things are quite impossible to implement without having to code the entire program again from scratch. Other things might involve the use of supplemental coding, called scripts.

#4: I want to use scripts but it looks like a bunch of techno babble

You're not ready.

#5: What do I do, then?

Well, I say this a lot to people who ask, and I still hold to it here: What you should do first is try to make a basic, simple quest using the original Zelda graphics. Yes they are ugly and possibly before your time, use them anyways because anything more advanced will be more difficult to use.

Open Zquest, use the NES style graphics laid before you, and read this: http://members.toast.../zqtutorial.zip

This tutorial covers how to make a very basic quest in Zelda classic. You can't make anything fancy if you don't know the basics, and even if you use basic graphics you can still produce something pretty nice.

Don't be intimidated, it's ok we were all new at it once. In fact, that's why I'm writing this for your own sake. If you can follow my advice and get your feet wet before attempting anything crazy, then I believe in you. icon_biggrin.gif If you ever reach a point where you don't know how you should effectively design your quest, read this and it will help you: http://www.purezc.co...o...c=53891&hl=


EDIT: I wanted to include some words of wisdom spoken by other members in this thread.

QUOTE(OrinXD)
I believe that this is a great idea, and I have a few tips to offer.

Work on difficulty curves. Jamming level 1 with Deathknights is just plain stupid.
Do not have millions of dead-ends scattered all over the overworld. It frustrates players.
Give some general direction on where to go in the overworld. Just leaving them to grab the sworld and just expect them to go straight to level 1, or forcing them down a narrow path to level 1 is a common problem that plauges even some of the best quests.
Do NOT spout random thingmajgs from the internet in random places, especially memes. It literatly trolls people.


Best of luck to all who enter these hallowed halls.

King Aquamentus/ Old-Skool

Edited by King Aquamentus, 12 June 2012 - 07:57 PM.


#2 LikeLike on fire

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 06:38 AM

scripts make it possible to talk to NPCs? I saw someones youtube video of their game play and they were talking.

judging by the date of this post, makes me thing I am "responsible" for it. But that could be my persecution complex talking.

#3 James24

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 07:24 AM

Its not easy making a quest of any decent quality. If you're new to quest making then you should ask yourself the following question: Am I willing to give up my time and sweat?

If no, not then I advise you not to start - you'll most likely end up demoralized and regretting that you invested your precious time on a wild goose chase.

If yes, then quest building can be one of the most rewarding, intriguing and pleasant experiences ever. Most other games out there you are stuck as the player - but ZC allows you to control the destiny of your own game. Make the game exactly how you want - and don't be influenced by what anyone else thinks or wants. Its your quest and you may do as you please.

One other point I should mention. Some people pretend that they are willing and happy to help on the surface and in public, but in private when push comes to shove they'll often look the other way and pretend that you don't exist. No one will help you. Not really. Not truly. Not when they have to give up their precious time. No player will help you test your quest when they have countless other quests to play which are better. No script writer will help you write scripts without asking for "comissions" or "compensation" or think of you as someone who they can ask for favours later. No other designer will fix screens, help with design or help you fix errors - let alone give you passwords to their own quests which are so crucial. You're on your own - better you hear this now than have to find out the hard way later.

The best you'll get are pre-written tutorials (which I must admit have been outstanding) and the odd short reply of advice on the forums which can sometimes be of dubious and misleading quality. So if your answer is still yes - then please write your quest and I look forward to playing it.

People can criticize my post all they want - but I speak from first hand experience having just made a quest and I speak the truth.

#4 Russ

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 11:37 AM

QUOTE(James24 @ Mar 9 2012, 04:24 AM) View Post

People can criticize my post all they want - but I speak from first hand experience having just made a quest and I speak the truth.

Speaking from first hand experience writing random scripts for other people (you included), I disagree with that post.

QUOTE
No other designer will fix screens, help with design or help you fix errors

Speaking from first hand experience having been late for class making mock ups to try and show people a better alternative to their screen design, I disagree.

QUOTE
let alone give you passwords to their own quests which are so crucial.

Speaking from first hand experience having released the password to every quest he's made, I disagree.

You're very cynical, and I'll admit you're not too far from the truth. But I've done most of the things you've said people won't, and I've seen others do them to. There may only be a few people who will, but they are out there.

#5 Old-Skool

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 02:10 PM

QUOTE(LikeLike on fire @ Mar 9 2012, 05:38 AM) View Post

scripts make it possible to talk to NPCs? I saw someones youtube video of their game play and they were talking.

judging by the date of this post, makes me thing I am "responsible" for it. But that could be my persecution complex talking.


That kind of Dialogue can be accomplished with or without scripting. The old method involved using hidden warps to take you to a duplicate screen with a guy and message string attached to it, creating the illusion that you triggered the dialogue just by walking up to them.

Also, take comfort: This is something I have witnessed multiple times in Zelda Classic. It's not because your case alone warranted it or anything, it just made me think "you know, someone should post some tips for new people on how to get started, and why they shouldn't try to use advanced graphics right off the bat." It's not you, it's a lot of people over the years. icon_wink.gif

QUOTE(James24 @ Mar 9 2012, 06:24 AM) View Post

Its not easy making a quest of any decent quality. If you're new to quest making then you should ask yourself the following question: Am I willing to give up my time and sweat?

If no, not then I advise you not to start - you'll most likely end up demoralized and regretting that you invested your precious time on a wild goose chase.

If yes, then quest building can be one of the most rewarding, intriguing and pleasant experiences ever. Most other games out there you are stuck as the player - but ZC allows you to control the destiny of your own game. Make the game exactly how you want - and don't be influenced by what anyone else thinks or wants. Its your quest and you may do as you please.


Questmaking can be a fun and rewarding hobby, once you are familiar with the program. You don't HAVE to make something grand your first try: If it sucks, it sucks, but at least you're learning how to use it. That's what matters right now.

QUOTE
One other point I should mention. Some people pretend that they are willing and happy to help on the surface and in public, but in private when push comes to shove they'll often look the other way and pretend that you don't exist. No one will help you. Not really. Not truly. Not when they have to give up their precious time. No player will help you test your quest when they have countless other quests to play which are better. No script writer will help you write scripts without asking for "comissions" or "compensation" or think of you as someone who they can ask for favours later. No other designer will fix screens, help with design or help you fix errors - let alone give you passwords to their own quests which are so crucial. You're on your own - better you hear this now than have to find out the hard way later.


I have never encountered a situation like this. True, most of the board's members are very young and often irrational, but they won't give the cold shoulder to someone who is clearly earnest about their projects and has shown that the resources won't go to waste, and I have most certainly Never heard any talk of commissions or compensation. I won't tell you that everyone will be your friend, but if you can be patient, you'll do just fine.

QUOTE
People can criticize my post all they want - but I speak from first hand experience having just made a quest and I speak the truth.


...

Edited by King Aquamentus, 09 March 2012 - 02:21 PM.


#6 Shane

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 08:12 PM

QUOTE
No other designer will fix screens, help with design or help you fix errors


*Points at the screenshot thread*

Also nice thread KA!

#7 Old-Skool

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 09:32 PM

QUOTE(Shane @ Mar 9 2012, 07:12 PM) View Post

*Points at the screenshot thread*

Also nice thread KA!



Thanks, Shane. And you're right: Recently, the quest screenshot thread became a thread built specifically for doing that which apparently PureZC does not offer.


I'm not trying to alienate you James24, but a lot of your points are highly contestable, and it sounds like even you know it, going by your final statement. icon_confused.gif The way you describe PureZC sounds more like what AGN used to be (and is most definitely not, anymore. If they could convince people to join and visit, those people would see how much it has turned around.)

#8 James24

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 12:43 AM

Russ, I'll admit that you might be the exception to the rule. I will amend my statement - almost no one will help you. But you also have to admit that when I started that thread about the stun weapon a while back "Is this possible with scripting" you posted that you had no time. And, when I asked about the "get off raft flag", you almost said the same thing...but changed your mind at the last minute. Thanks for that - I appreciate it and if you need a favour in future I am obliged to reciprocate.

I am not cynical without good cause. I am like a scientist - I am simply retelling what I observed happened and then drawing conclusions from that. If you read the thread about "Is this possible with scripting" you'll see the kind of resistance I encountered.

King Aquamentus, maybe its because you've been around so long people know your reputation and name people treat you differently. If you were to sign up again as a new and unknown member and ask for help writing your new quest (which has to be different and strange if you are to compare your experience with mine coz mine was a very unusual quest) and then talk about your experiences I might listen.

As for "comission" and "compensation" see what Schwa posted on that "Is this possible with scripting" thread. When I confronted him about this he told me I had misunderstood but he still asked for "compensation". To this day, I believe I understood perfectly.

As for testing, I could forward to you the PMs of people who swore they would test my quest and I hadn't heard from them in 2 months when I released it. Only one of them had the decency to reply to me and say that they weren't going to continue testing anymore. But I'd break confidentiality if I did that.

I admire what you are trying to do KA. Its a worthy ideal that you are trying to attract new members and I support that really. But new members deserve to know exactly what they are in for when they sign on.

#9 Shane

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 01:42 AM

Y'know, if no one helps you that doesn't mean you go and say no one will help anyone: proof? *points at the forums, script requests, ZC editor help, ZC design help and developers exchange and the rest of the help-related forums*

I recall Russ and a few others helping me during my newbie days, it's just sometimes, some things ZC newbies bring to the table seems far fetched for them.

Edited by Shane, 10 March 2012 - 01:58 AM.


#10 James24

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 02:01 AM

I beg to differ. If numerous requests for help are turned down, what is any reasonable person supposed to think? It doesn't matter what exchanges or forums there are - firsthand experience overrides everything else.

A newbie wouldn't get help for two political reasons that people rarely ever say outloud 1) There's no guarantee that the help is going to be used in any meaningful quest - in fact it could go to waste if they quit the project half-way. 2) The newbie isn't going to reciprocate the help for a long time coming. These are not a problem for someone who's established - so they will get help and go on thinking that everyone else is treated the same when the reality is far different.

I say again Shane, prove me wrong. Sign up under a new alias and pretend you're a newbie making a very strange and unusual quest. If people really do help you then perhaps I was wrong.

#11 Shane

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 02:07 AM

QUOTE
I say again Shane, prove me wrong. Sign up under a new alias and pretend you're a newbie making a very strange and unusual quest. If people really do help you then perhaps I was wrong.


Just to prove my point and get banned?

But I'll say it again, Russ and a few others helped me during my newbie days, do I need to say this a third time? icon_shrug.gif

QUOTE

It doesn't matter what exchanges or forums there are - firsthand experience overrides everything else. [...] There's no guarantee that the help is going to be used in any meaningful quest - in fact it could go to waste if they quit the project half-way.


Regardless if it's firsthand experience or not, I've failed over a million projects and I still get help THAT'S my firsthand experience. So there is yet another piece of proof why I still stand my case.

Also when you're on a forum, when you post an answer it's not just directing to the person who made the question but the viewers too.

Edited by Shane, 10 March 2012 - 04:13 AM.


#12 Moosh

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 02:09 AM

QUOTE(James24 @ Mar 10 2012, 02:01 AM) View Post

I say again Shane, prove me wrong. Sign up under a new alias and pretend you're a newbie making a very strange and unusual quest. If people really do help you then perhaps I was wrong.

That would be an interesting experiment, but unfortunately alternate accounts aren't allowed because they could be used for ban evasions and whatnot.

#13 Orithan

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 02:26 AM

QUOTE(James24 @ Mar 10 2012, 06:01 PM) View Post

I say again Shane, prove me wrong. Sign up under a new alias and pretend you're a newbie making a very strange and unusual quest. If people really do help you then perhaps I was wrong.


He did something like that in the past (reregistered as Tony 31), about a year ago, and his new account got banned while it contributed to his old account getting a posting suspension.

Edited by Orin XD, 10 March 2012 - 02:28 AM.


#14 Shane

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 02:30 AM

QUOTE(Orin XD @ Mar 10 2012, 04:56 PM) View Post

He did something like that in the past (reregistered as Tony 31), about a year ago, and his new account got banned while it contributed to his old account getting a posting suspension.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd you just had to do that, didn't you?

No offense, but you shouldn't call people out like that, but yes, me and poke already covered that you'd get banned if you make another account...

It seems like you think I can't read. Think again. Seriously? icon_neutral.gif And BTW it's Tony_123 not Tony 31, if you gonna call out people do it right.

Well on topic I don't think we'd get a Skyward Sword 2 unless Nintendo makes it themselves because I never seen a actual OoT demake on any game maker yet.

Edited by Shane, 10 March 2012 - 03:24 AM.


#15 Lightwulf

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 02:54 AM

Here's my take on all this that James24 brought up:

Sometimes the people that care enough to help are busy helping others. I know for myself, because I have life responsibilities that limit my ZQuest working time, I limit myself to 2-3 different projects: 1 being my own quest while I allow room for 1-2 side projects helping others. I look and see the requests for help with spriting and think to myself, "Aww, I'd really like to help, but I've already got 2 big projects I'm working on." Any third thing I would take on (when I'm working 2 big projects, that is) beyond that would be small requests, like help with spriting one character/enemy in particular that is needed. At any rate, that's just me. There are others out there who (I'm sure) have more time than I do that may be willing to help.

However, I can identify with the pained tone of your words. There are times when I would post something and not get a response. However, this was most often when I had already received a response or two and then posted changes, wanting to know how the changes looked. Sometimes, in this case, rather than asking for a second opinion, I just went and made my own opinion about it and move on with it.
It hasn't been very often (maybe once or twice in the past year that I've been on here) that I didn't receive any response at all. That's why I've made time to be online and monitor certain forums in order to answer anyone that's been unanswered.

So, I would agree with Russ. There are people out there. Just do your best and be patient.
Also, don't just focus on your own quest. Find other quests that interest you (at least one) and give others a hand. Someone is more likely to help you/post in your threads if you are helping them. You might have experienced something that someone else hasn't and be able to give them sound advice. If you want friends, be a friend. (And I'm not, in any way, trying to imply you don't have friends because I don't know you, so please don't take it that way. Cool? icon_cool.gif )
QUOTE(Shane @ Mar 10 2012, 02:30 AM) View Post

I never seen a actual OoT demake on any game maker yet.

I know what you mean, Shane. I've only seen certain areas done, not the entire game itself. I've thought about it from time to time, but most of the 3D games have game mechanics that would require a ton of scripting to implement all elements of the game into ZC.

Edited by Lightwulf, 10 March 2012 - 02:58 AM.



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