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ZC's future - the elephant in the room


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#76 Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 04:06 AM

I can tell that we have many type B thinkers here. This is good!


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#77 Evan20000

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 08:25 AM

What if I'm a Type O thinker who only receives ideas from other Type O thinkers?


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#78 Haylee

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 08:59 AM

What if I'm a Type O thinker who only receives ideas from other Type O thinkers?


I'm a Type AB thinker, so I can receive ideas from everyone!
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#79 peteandwally

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 09:04 PM

James, when is your new elephant quest coming out? I am excite


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#80 ywkls

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 03:37 AM

Ok, so I normally don't get involved in these things.
But, this argument is apparently still going on elsewhere; such as on Discord.
I've followed it and there are several relevant points which  stand out and need to be clarified for the benefit of anyone who hasn't taken a side.
This will examine each of the important details one at a time, with my thoughts on each.
 

In recent years, there can be no doubt that there have been fewer quests made and fewer people coming to purezc.  Indeed, looking over the past few months we can see that very few quests are being made.  If the trend continues, and there's no reason to assume it won't, then it should become obvious what will happen.

Have there been less quests recently than in the past? The data on that has been posted several times.
Making any prediction about the future is another matter. As to whether new quests are being made, all one has to do is examine the Quest Projects section to find the answer to that.
Additionally, I have joined the bandwagon of most quest makers and moved my efforts to Discord where there is activity pretty much daily.
So what is the worth of this argument? It's a broad generalization. It can be neither proven nor disproven. Therefore, it cannot be used as the basis for any other decisions.
 

For the record I will say that I've correctly predicted the "sales" outcome of Mike's Fun House and The Slipstream.  In addition, in real life I'm a wealthy and successful businessperson whose job it is to predict and forecast sales of certain products and improve their sell ability if possible.  So I've had no shortage of experience with these kinds of matters.  And I feel its my duty to speak out and inform the community of my expert opinion.

Let's leave aside the question of whether or not we believe this statement is true. Accept it as fact. Now, then... is it then also true that no expert in any field has ever been wrong about anything ever? While that may seem like a somewhat specious argument, what the above amounts to is something known as a testimonial. It's a form of propaganda used to influence individuals based upon the beliefs of someone who is supposed to be an accomplished member in their field. Whether or not the person is really what they claim is immaterial. We the reader have no means of verifying this statement. Therefore, we cannot make any decisions based on it.
 

But lets just imagine that Phantom Menace had said.  "Oh well you know what guys, I'm too bothered to write this Manhandla boss".  If you want it, here's ghost.zh and you guys figure out how to script it and put it all together.  "Oh well you know what guys, I can't be bothered writing shutter doors, bomb-through walls or walk-through walls, but hey here's a scripting know-how manual and you can write a ffc script for it".  Can you imagine that?  Zelda Classic would have sunk right there and then like a lead stone.

I used to call this a "What if?" scenario. You could likewise go "What if Washington lost the Revolutionary War?" "What if JFK wasn't assassinated?" "What if Al Gore won the 2000 election?" There's one major flaw with this argument. It didn't happen. Again, no basis for making decisions.
 

Fact of the matter is that for every Evan, Russ, Avataro, Jamian and Mitsuraka who have successfully learnt how to script there are hundreds if not thousands of potential quest makers who are turned away by the very idea of having to spend 6 intensively months learning how to script even before making the first screen of their dream quest.  As they should rightly be.  Think of how much 6 months of work is worth - $20 - $25k if you went out to work a modest job.  From personal experience of having 0 knowledge of scripting I know that's how long it would take.

So... whenever I started to learn scripting in October 2014; I was already 36 years old and had no knowledge of coding outside of working with a graphing calculator 20 years previous.
I still was able to start incorporating scripts almost at once and make my own within 4 months. The stated time of 6 months minimum is therefore an arbitrary number with no data to back it up and cannot be used to make decisions. Add this to the fact that learning this is often squeezed in between work and other aspects of life and you can clearly see that it's an exaggeration,
And the monetary aspect is irrelevant, since most people do ZC for fun. If the day ever comes when it can be sold, it will then be something to consider.

Finally, scripting is like learning another language. You never stop expanding your knowledge, you simply become more fluent.
 

Is scripting necessary to make  "sell-quality" quest?  For today's fanbase you can bet your bottom dollar it is.  Where would IoR be without scripting?  Link and Zelda without one line of code?  Rite of the Storm without Avataro's know-how?  Even the modest Slipstream quest requires intense know-how of scripting.  Would they be selling right now if their authors had not taken the time to learn how to script?  I highly doubt it.  More recently there was South by Southrule by Flynn which I though was very good but it didn't sell because it was an old NES Zelda quest that had minimal if not 0 scripting.  Have a look at Mega-Man.  No scripting and it flops when trying to sell to today's fanbase.

Are scripted quests better or more popular than other quests? I'm actually in agreement here. Yes, I prefer scripted to not. I won't touch most NES looking quests.
However, the next statement is a bit more questionable.
 

If Zelda Classic is to have a large pool of quest makers once again then the scripting requirement for making "good" and "sellable" quests to today's fanbase MUST go.  It MUST.  6 months for a user to learn is too long.  The average quest maker wants to make their dream quest quickly and have it sell to today's fanbase with zero scripting effort.  If the average quest maker thinks they can't make their dream quest cheaply and have a modest chance of it selling then they simply won't bother with ZQuest and wait for the "pro" quest-devs to make something they like.
 
They want to make their IoR, their Link and Zelda, their Rite of the Storm without having to learn one line of code like the old ZC for Zelda 1 quests.  The current ZC needs to do just that.  But I think the task is too mammoth for the ZC devs to do something like this.  Phantom Menace only had one game that he had to emulate.  Modern Zelda has dozens of titles that Nintendo has produced over the years and for the devs to incorporate all the main features of them into ZC for the average user to use is too much to ask.  One only needs to follow their thoughts through to logical conclusion to see where this is all headed...

So.., if I understand the core of the argument... scripting is too hard to learn, therefore most people will give up trying to make quests, therefore ZC will die?
My succinct reply to that? "So what?"
That's right.
If ZC dies, I will likely still be making quests.
Why? Because I enjoy doing that.
Most other people who create quests aren't doing so because they want to necessarily become popular.
It's because it is fun.
 

As for the quests you've mentioned, how can you verify whether or not the author really did or did not make scripts of their own?  Maybe the author painstakingly learned how to script on their own and made a script that, unknowningly to them, already existed on the database.  Truth is there's no way to know for sure except by relying on the word of the author.
 
Golvellius is a 2013 quest, ToTheTop is a 2014 quest.  Both of which should not be counted because scripting was relatively new then.  Judging by Yuurei, Aevin can script so why would you think that The Hero's Memory contains no scripts?  If an author can script they'd be crazy to deprive themselves of such a fantastic tool.  I only played a little bit of The Hero's Memory and stopped because it was too easy so I can't tell for sure whether not it really does have no scripts.  Lyrics of Death only has 4 good ratings from 463 downloads which is of a far lower proportion to the rest of the "sold" quests, The Remake I know for sure uses scripts whether or not Shoshon got them from the database I'm not so sure of.  Same for The Legend of Amy Rose 3 by eddy.  T

How can you determine if an author used scripts? Ask.
If that's not sufficient then there's no point to listening to either side of this debate.
As for whether an author who can script will script in a given situation; my usual answer is "as needed"
 

This brings me to another point brought up by a fair few - taking a public pre-made script or asking someone else to write the script for you and then putting it into your quest is, from my experience, undesirable.

Why? Because you don't know if it will work? Because the author isn't going to lead you by the hand every step of the way?
There's plenty of help on implementing scripts on the forums and Discord.
I made plenty of script requests before doing it on my own.
 

First, there's plenty of scripts so you'd have to know your way around the script database and you don't even know if what you require even exists at all.  You could be going on a wild-goose chase.

Does a script exist? Hmm... (searches database, searches forums, asks on Discord).
Ok, in the event that script doesn't exist; maybe there is a reason? 
Too hard with current version of ZC. Not publicly released. Impossible with current version of ZC. Nobody else thought of it before.
If only there was... you know... a forum where you could request scripts...
 

Second of all there's the whole process of figuring out how to integrate your script into the quest using the ffc things.  Might be trivial for a seasoned scripter but its a nightmare for a beginner.  Third, you always worry about whether its going to work correctly in your quest.  If it doesn't, maybe its your fault or maybe its the scripts fault - you don't know.  If its the script's fault then you're going to have to ask people to re-write the script for you.  Finally, what happens if you want to make small tweaks and adjustments to the script because it just isn't right?  Once again you're going to be dependent on whether or not other people like you and if they support your work.  I can't imagine anyone writing scripts for my Insanity Unchained simply because they know that their hard work and effort will all be for zero since they won't enjoy the final work.  How am I supposed to go around asking people for help in such a situation?  I've got strong hunch I'm not the only one who feels uncomfortable with such a situation but also many novice want-to-be quest makers.

I'm lumping these together. So... developments in scripting and ZC are going to make ffc's obsolete in some cases. If you haven't figured out how ffc's work, then scripting probably isn't for you,
The question of "will this script work" bothers many scripters. I've often had ideas that almost worked or had weird bugs that I could spend days figuring out.
If the script isn't perfect, well... the best way to learn how to fix it is to start fiddling around with existing stuff. While the results aren't necessarily predictable, they can help to teach you how the scripts work. ZScript.txt explains the built-in scripting terms. Unless you're using 2.55; every other script is built off of the concepts there.
As for whether asking for help makes you uncomfortable, that varies from one person to another and thus fits into the category of broad generalization.
 

Compare this to the early days without scripting and having everything done for you in ZC.  You simply go into the ZC editor, press a few buttons to make the screens that you want another few buttons to put the enemies you want on screen and Bob's you're Uncle.  Easy, simple and you don't need anyone else, you don't even need to look up how do any stuff on the interenet.  That sells.  ZC would sell a lot more and a lot more quests would be made if people could download ZC and make their dream quest offline all by themselves without needing to ever have to go on the Internet ever again except when they finish and want to put it on the database.  I play a lot of quests by very strange and unknown authors and it never ceases to amaze me that only the features that come with ZC get used.

Just to clarify, I've been using ZC for over a decade and there are still features of the editor I'm learning about.
To argue that learning to use it alone is easier than scripting is therefore laughable at best.
 

Finally Shane, its no secret that you've cancelled several of quests throughout your time here.  In fact, you haven't produced any solo quest of your own.  Why is that?  Perhaps you find it too tedious to learn how to script and that the 6 month barrier is too much for you.  In that case, you should be avidly supporting me.  Avataro on the other hand has numerous quests in the database all well-scripted and all well polished.  You even said it yourself that he wrote the scripts.  It would make logical sense to conclude that you design the levels and he does the scripting.  It works since your levels will sell well to the modern Nintendo Zelda Type A audience since you yourself are of that demographic.

To me, this almost feels like a personal attack. Nothing said here is relevant to the conversation. I'm only quoting it so others can know what I'm referring to.
 

Anyone can judge a "good" tileset by looking at it.  Anyone can judge "good" music by searching for something they are familiar with or by listening to the melody.  But its A LOT harder to judge whether someone else's script is good by just looking at it especially if can't script yourself.  How do you know if their code is what you intended to have happen in your quest?  How do you know if their code will actually work or that its complete garbage leading you on a wild goose-chase?  You don't know and you simply have to trust them and if it doesn't work well then how do you whose fault it is?  If you criticize them and they find out its your fault then you'll be laughed at.

This might have merit... if not for the fact most scripts these days come with demo quests to show how they work and instructions on how to implement them along with people who want their product to be used in a given quest. As for whether you can judge a tileset or music easily... how is that relevant to judging scripts? And unless you look at every tile, palette and combo page, you may find you were wrong about your choice of tileset.
 

Of course you can do plenty without scripting, but it appears to me that most people want their game to sell. Me being the obvious exception.  Why are you selling if the buyer isn't paying is my motto.  And when I predict these doom and gloom scenarios about their work not selling I never hear the end of it even if I'm 100% correct.  Selling their game is infinitely more likely to occur with scripting than without - just look at those flagship quests I've pointed out. I also agree that if you scripting alone does not make a good quest.  But scripting is an essential element to a good quest - if that makes sense to you.

This statement seems self contradictory. First, he doesn't care if his quest sells. Then he says not to sell if no one is buying. And the last part acknowledges the value of scripting.
We're arguing in circles here, people! This goes nowhere.
 
So at this point in the thread, we're just covering ground that has already been covered. I'm going to start skipping ahead until new material arises.
 

People want specifics so I'll give you some.  How about starting with interior doors?  Right now, if you want shutters then you have to use NES dungeons and the shutters from them.  Same for bombable walls or walk-through walls, they're NES dungeon only.  Only scripters can make interior doors like described above.  How about a nice ice-block puzzle like in level 9 of IoR?  Hang on a minute ice-block puzzles aren't part of the ZC engine, you'll have to be a scripter.  How about a nice boss health meter?  Gee - ZC doesn't appear to have that built in, guess I'll have to study up on scripting or figure out how to integrate James's Z2 Boss health meter into my game.  What if I want to show how much damage an enemy has taken when I hit things with a certain item like in Mike's Fun House or Umbral Cloud.  Can the trusty ZC engine do this for me without me having to learn how to script?  Nope, I have to do it myself.  What if I like to make Link move a lot faster than he normally does like in LoH:IU or Lost Kingdom of the Banana God?  6 months of studying scripting and it'll be all yours.  What if I want moving platforms like in IoR level 11?  Same deal.  How about a prismatic dungeon like in IoR or most modern Nintendo Zelda titles?  Can ZC help me do that by taking all the scripting worries out of the equation.  Nope.  What if I want a steerable raft like in LoH:IU, Rite of the Storm or Slipstream?  You guessed it - scripting otherwise I'll get the old raft with unsteerable raft paths.  What about seeds and plants like in Forbidden City or other Nintendo titles?  You don't find them in ZC.  I could keep going on all day but I hope you see my point...

So... I should note here that these features aren't in most official Zelda titles.
The fact they exist in ZC is the result of either hard work designing the areas or scripting.
Having these enhances a quest, but doesn't necessarily make it better.
 

And I haven't even started about custom bosses.  Ok, so its not possible for the devs to make custom bosses for everyone who requests one.  So they put out ghost and let users figure out how to make their own custom bosses.  Did it work?  Nope.  Fact that Moosh and Avataro saw they needed to make a newbie boss maker so that average quest makers could put new bosses into their quests should have sounded alarm bells about the viability of ghost selling to the average quest maker.  Imagine if their newbie boss editor was seamlessly integrated into Zelda Classic.  Even better would be if the devs made bosses that are well known from Nintendo titles like what Phantom Menace did with the original Zelda Classic which had all the bosses from the NES game built in.  Right now, if I want my own bosses, I'd firstly have to know about newbie boss and secondly I'd need to figure out how to integrate it into my quest.  A lot of work.  I might not mind it but the average-quest maker out there will and they will voice their disapproval by the dwindling amount of quests made every year.

Short version of the argument: ghost.zh is needed to make bosses and nobody is doing that.
My reply: Enemy Scripts I've Released

I've created a lot more which are publicly available in the script files of all the quests I've created.

And all of these were made without Newbie Boss.

 

This is the kind of work that should have been done over 20 years of development that would give ZC a fighting chance right now.  But the devs of the past rightly or wrongly chose to keep the game centered around NES Zelda features and scripting for anything else people wanted and the results of that decision should be plain and obvious for all to see.  Its going to take a lot of work to catch up on 20 years of development and I think its beyond what the devs of today can realistically do.  Its too much work to do and I would never ask anyone to do it.  Therefore the only viable alternative is to simply accept that the game will die and that there's nothing realistic you can do about it because of the time budget.

It is definitely impossible to change the past, but the future is infinite and unknown.

Choosing to completely give up now is therefore a stance which cannot be justified.

 

Accepting that your game is going to die before you start making it is a very tough thing to do. 

So, since we're all going to perish someday that means we should stop putting it off?

This argument has no merit.

 

That covers everything I think needs a response.

 

TL;DR- James feels scripting takes too long and is too hard for new people to pick up, therefore ZC will die.

My reply: The amount of time scripting takes to learn varies. Scripting is never fully mastered. If ZC dies, that won't stop many from making quests.


Edited by ywkls, 05 November 2019 - 03:41 AM.

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#81 klop422

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 06:21 AM

As for whether asking for help makes you uncomfortable, that varies from one person to another and thus fits into the category of broad generalization.

Just want to jump onto a tangent here and say - don't ever be afraid to ask for help. As long as you're respectful, people tend to be nice around here. Even if what you want is impossible/not something someone wants to spend days on, they'll normally let you know fairly respectfully. Then you can either change the scope of what you want or actually try to work on it for yourself.


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#82 Thunderfist

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 09:08 AM

POPULARITY:

As technology and officially released games begin to focus more on user customization, mods will become increasingly popular as its own respected form of games and in fact basically is already. Look at RPG Maker and Mario Maker. If this were a SMART PHONE app, didn't look so dated, and had auto-assembling components like pop-up boxes to set every attribute of a shop's message and guy at once then the program would be popular already. Further, the original Zelda fans have always been the core demographic for ZQuest and Zelda Classic, but 99% of ZQuest's potential audience are fans of other games easily created that just don't know where to go or what's possible here. If you really want to increase popularity, retool the interface, repackage it as something new to create any 8-bit game, and make a few YouTube video ads for it that we can share in the modding communities. Brag to your interested family and friends about the quests and techniques advances you make, posting online in various gaming communities such as numerous Facebook groups and pages. Get the word out there about what's possible and generate interest. Upload YouTube video ads for your game and tell people in the description where to download the game-making program. The community doesn't have to die, but it looks like most of those here are mostly isolationists only active here with not much going on in Facebookland or whatever and that itself is a rot to any community trying to thrive.

 

MARKETING VIABILITY:

Porting ZQuest to a smart phone with screen-pinch zooming and sideways playability (with buttons on-screen to either side of the smaller than screen display) would be a huge boon for user-generated gameplay in general. Short of that, packaging your custom quests with the free Zelda Classic program and only technically selling the unique content you make is a distinct possibility, especially if you're able to figure out a decent smart phone Windows emulator with which to launch your Zelda Classic player with a decent button interface. Smartphone apps are easy enough to generate interest for and get on the Google Play market or whatever, and even if you don't Androids can download 3rd party apps so you can always sell copies of your game individually. Even without an app, you can always sell your quest as a PC game packaged with Zelda Classic. And then of course you can always market your finished product to video game-publishing companies want to sell your game for you or use it as the basis for something of their own. Every single one of these ideas can be monetized, but the hours you put in won't pay off even to the point of minimum wage so let money be a secondary concern. Some love creating with ZQuest. I do in general, but using this program is stressful, so I just keep my eyes on the game I'm going to be able to play soon.

 

SCRIPTING QUALITY QUESTS:
OK, forgive my ignorance as I'm new to the point of only having used one script despite devising multiple new character switching techniques, but. What about a better script interface?? Why not just (1) combine all of the 10 or whatever script headers (std.zh, etc.) into a single notepad document, (2) copy and paste every single working script into said single notepad document, and then (3) add a checklist menu at the top of ZQuest under "Quest" that just lets you select and de-select desired scripts (4) that each pop up a window with clearly defined variables to input? Or what about just a different version of ZQuest configured for use with different types of scripts if incompatible like a ZQuest Blue, Red, Gold, and Silver? Then everyone can script easily right out of the gate. Scripting is a bit difficult for anyone not a programmer to learn, as it even explains introductory things in programming terms like "boolean" in such a way that you have to have a degree in programming just to follow the instructions. It would be better if there were a step-by-step explanation of what scripting is, how to use it, and then how to adjust and write scripts manually. It took effort just to find the most basic instructions to copy and paste a certain header and then the script, and then I was immediately looking at tons and tons of pages to figure out what anything meant in the code itself. There just needs to be a single, self-contained user-guide for scripting so anyone can do it. It could contain a one-page reference summary, a chapter on each major scripting component, and a page on each point therein saying clearly what to do in every situation/ what each variable effects. I am currently learning a foreign language, and scripting is much harder. At the same time I'm learning German I followed AlphaDawg's walkthrough and read the entire ZQuest user guide to figure out how to make a custom quest over the past 20 months or so. A step-by-step user guide works for explaining anything, but you can't just drop someone into an advanced language or programming course and expect them to do well. We need better user guides. Both expanded with tons of detail, and a condensed version for quick reference.

 

HELP:

Help comes, but neither often nor quickly. By the time your question is answered, you may not need it answered or may have lost motivation in general. We should make the Discord group more prominent with an explanation in the Welcome area for PureZC, and feature an "Active" group chat for those online in the last couple days so we can keep each other on-track for our goals and encourage activity within the community.

 

ULTIMATELY:

Never abandon this site, as the die-hards won't stop making quests and sharing with each other. Expand if you want to by being more active in engaging the community via social media, but don't act like it's anything you don't have control over. Everything can always be influenced if nothing else.



#83 Emily

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 09:54 AM

POPULARITY:
As technology and officially released games begin to focus more on user customization, mods will become increasingly popular as its own respected form of games and in fact basically is already. Look at RPG Maker and Mario Maker. If this were a SMART PHONE app, didn't look so dated, and had auto-assembling components like pop-up boxes to set every attribute of a shop's message and guy at once then the program would be popular already. Further, the original Zelda fans have always been the core demographic for ZQuest and Zelda Classic, but 99% of ZQuest's potential audience are fans of other games easily created that just don't know where to go or what's possible here. If you really want to increase popularity, retool the interface, repackage it as something new to create any 8-bit game, and make a few YouTube video ads for it that we can share in the modding communities. Brag to your interested family and friends about the quests and techniques advances you make, posting online in various gaming communities such as numerous Facebook groups and pages. Get the word out there about what's possible and generate interest. Upload YouTube video ads for your game and tell people in the description where to download the game-making program. The community doesn't have to die, but it looks like most of those here are mostly isolationists only active here with not much going on in Facebookland or whatever and that itself is a rot to any community trying to thrive.

 

Whoever has the money to run ads on a freeware program, sure, once it's set to be un-infrinnging...

 

MARKETING VIABILITY:
Porting ZQuest to a smart phone with screen-pinch zooming and sideways playability (with buttons on-screen to either side of the smaller than screen display) would be a huge boon for user-generated gameplay in general. Short of that, packaging your custom quests with the free Zelda Classic program and only technically selling the unique content you make is a distinct possibility, especially if you're able to figure out a decent smart phone Windows emulator with which to launch your Zelda Classic player with a decent button interface. Smartphone apps are easy enough to generate interest for and get on the Google Play market or whatever, and even if you don't Androids can download 3rd party apps so you can always sell copies of your game individually. Even without an app, you can always sell your quest as a PC game packaged with Zelda Classic. And then of course you can always market your finished product to video game-publishing companies want to sell your game for you or use it as the basis for something of their own. Every single one of these ideas can be monetized, but the hours you put in won't pay off even to the point of minimum wage so let money be a secondary concern. Some love creating with ZQuest. I do in general, but using this program is stressful, so I just keep my eyes on the game I'm going to be able to play soon.

 

My god, attempting to make this smartphone-compatible, just fuck no

 

SCRIPTING QUALITY QUESTS:
OK, forgive my ignorance as I'm new to the point of only having used one script despite devising multiple new character switching techniques, but. What about a better script interface?? Why not just (1) combine all of the 10 or whatever script headers (std.zh, etc.) into a single notepad document,

 

No. No, no no no, no.

 

(2) copy and paste every single working script into said single notepad document,

 

This is idiotic

 

and then (3) add a checklist menu at the top of ZQuest under "Quest" that just lets you select and de-select desired scripts

 

This isn't even remotely how scripts fucking work

 

(4) that each pop up a window with clearly defined variables to input?

 

Again, not remotely how scripts work. You are literally talking about making a GUI-based script system, something we have exactly said numerous times would mean rewriting pretty much all of fucking ZC. No, no, no, no, no. No. No.

 

Or what about just a different version of ZQuest configured for use with different types of scripts if incompatible like a ZQuest Blue, Red, Gold, and Silver? Then everyone can script easily right out of the gate. Scripting is a bit difficult for anyone not a programmer to learn, as it even explains introductory things in programming terms like "boolean" in such a way that you have to have a degree in programming just to follow the instructions.

 

Must have 'A degree in programming'? Err, no. Must google programming stuff. That is BASIC level shit. You want to talk about a degree? I'm working on my degree. For a degree, you need a HELL of a lot more than ANYTHING in ZScript. Someone who took a high-school basic programming class could easily do a crapton in ZScript. Someone who spent maybe a couple hours on 'code.org' taking free lessons, could do a crapton in ZScript. Someone with a degree? They are FAR beyond that. ZScript is EASY compared to some of the shit you need to do for a degree. And, at that, I've heard my college has it easy as far as CS programs go; I can't imagine places where they have more.
'boolean' is an EXTREMELY simple concept. It's called 'true or false'. 'it is raining' is a question with a boolean answer. Just because a word is fancy doesn't mean it isn't EXTREMELY SIMPLE if you, say GOOGLE IT, or, ASK SOMEONE.

 

It would be better if there were a step-by-step explanation of what scripting is, how to use it, and then how to adjust and write scripts manually. It took effort just to find the most basic instructions to copy and paste a certain header and then the script, and then I was immediately looking at tons and tons of pages to figure out what anything meant in the code itself. There just needs to be a single, self-contained user-guide for scripting so anyone can do it. It could contain a one-page reference summary, a chapter on each major scripting component, and a page on each point therein saying clearly what to do in every situation/ what each variable effects. I am currently learning a foreign language, and scripting is much harder.

 

A proper guide, would make sense. As for internal stuff, 'zscript.txt' included with every version tells you everything; except for stuff added in 2.55. For 2.55, 'ZScript_Additions.txt' documents every single change (also included, with every alpha of 2.55). As for USER variables - variables people declare in scripts/headers - that is 100% up to THEM to document; if you look at the database, every script is required to have instructions in the 'Setup' tab. There is literally no way for us to handle that. Included headers, such as 'std.zh', are documented; 'std.txt' explains that. Though, many don't use this, as they find it easier to literally just open the 'std_functions.zh' and 'std_constants.zh' files to look at them directly; myself included.
As for learning another language, I'm presently abroad in Japan, learning Japanese, and I can DAMN well tell you it's a few hundred times harder than learning coding.

 

At the same time I'm learning German I followed AlphaDawg's walkthrough and read the entire ZQuest user guide to figure out how to make a custom quest over the past 20 months or so. A step-by-step user guide works for explaining anything, but you can't just drop someone into an advanced language or programming course and expect them to do well. We need better user guides. Both expanded with tons of detail, and a condensed version for quick reference.

 

Agreed, we do need better guides/tutorials. I hope to fully re-flesh-out the wiki (and/or create a fresh wiki) with full up-to-date 2.55 documentation at some point, including a full section for people to post tutorials.

 

HELP:
Help comes, but neither often nor quickly. By the time your question is answered, you may not need it answered or may have lost motivation in general. We should make the Discord group more prominent with an explanation in the Welcome area for PureZC, and feature an "Active" group chat for those online in the last couple days so we can keep each other on-track for our goals and encourage activity within the community.

 

Making it more prominently linked on the site, sure, that makes sense. What the hell do you mean by ''Active' group chat', though? There are multiple discussion channels, one of which specifically for scripting; discord is, by nature, a messaging app where people are active and messaging.

 

ULTIMATELY:
Never abandon this site, as the die-hards won't stop making quests and sharing with each other. Expand if you want to by being more active in engaging the community via social media, but don't act like it's anything you don't have control over. Everything can always be influenced if nothing else.

 

Agreed.



#84 Timelord

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 11:12 AM

POPULARITY:
As technology and officially released games begin to focus more on user customization, mods will become increasingly popular as its own respected form of games and in fact basically is already. Look at RPG Maker and Mario Maker. If this were a SMART PHONE app, didn't look so dated, and had auto-assembling components like pop-up boxes to set every attribute of a shop's message and guy at once then the program would be popular already. Further, the original Zelda fans have always been the core demographic for ZQuest and Zelda Classic, but 99% of ZQuest's potential audience are fans of other games easily created that just don't know where to go or what's possible here. If you really want to increase popularity, retool the interface, repackage it as something new to create any 8-bit game, and make a few YouTube video ads for it that we can share in the modding communities. Brag to your interested family and friends about the quests and techniques advances you make, posting online in various gaming communities such as numerous Facebook groups and pages. Get the word out there about what's possible and generate interest. Upload YouTube video ads for your game and tell people in the description where to download the game-making program. The community doesn't have to die, but it looks like most of those here are mostly isolationists only active here with not much going on in Facebookland or whatever and that itself is a rot to any community trying to thrive.
 
MARKETING VIABILITY:
Porting ZQuest to a smart phone with screen-pinch zooming and sideways playability (with buttons on-screen to either side of the smaller than screen display) would be a huge boon for user-generated gameplay in general. Short of that, packaging your custom quests with the free Zelda Classic program and only technically selling the unique content you make is a distinct possibility, especially if you're able to figure out a decent smart phone Windows emulator with which to launch your Zelda Classic player with a decent button interface. Smartphone apps are easy enough to generate interest for and get on the Google Play market or whatever, and even if you don't Androids can download 3rd party apps so you can always sell copies of your game individually. Even without an app, you can always sell your quest as a PC game packaged with Zelda Classic. And then of course you can always market your finished product to video game-publishing companies want to sell your game for you or use it as the basis for something of their own. Every single one of these ideas can be monetized, but the hours you put in won't pay off even to the point of minimum wage so let money be a secondary concern. Some love creating with ZQuest. I do in general, but using this program is stressful, so I just keep my eyes on the game I'm going to be able to play soon.
 
SCRIPTING QUALITY QUESTS:
OK, forgive my ignorance as I'm new to the point of only having used one script despite devising multiple new character switching techniques, but. What about a better script interface?? Why not just (1) combine all of the 10 or whatever script headers (std.zh, etc.) into a single notepad document, (2) copy and paste every single working script into said single notepad document, and then (3) add a checklist menu at the top of ZQuest under "Quest" that just lets you select and de-select desired scripts (4) that each pop up a window with clearly defined variables to input? Or what about just a different version of ZQuest configured for use with different types of scripts if incompatible like a ZQuest Blue, Red, Gold, and Silver? Then everyone can script easily right out of the gate. Scripting is a bit difficult for anyone not a programmer to learn, as it even explains introductory things in programming terms like "boolean" in such a way that you have to have a degree in programming just to follow the instructions. It would be better if there were a step-by-step explanation of what scripting is, how to use it, and then how to adjust and write scripts manually. It took effort just to find the most basic instructions to copy and paste a certain header and then the script, and then I was immediately looking at tons and tons of pages to figure out what anything meant in the code itself. There just needs to be a single, self-contained user-guide for scripting so anyone can do it. It could contain a one-page reference summary, a chapter on each major scripting component, and a page on each point therein saying clearly what to do in every situation/ what each variable effects. I am currently learning a foreign language, and scripting is much harder. At the same time I'm learning German I followed AlphaDawg's walkthrough and read the entire ZQuest user guide to figure out how to make a custom quest over the past 20 months or so. A step-by-step user guide works for explaining anything, but you can't just drop someone into an advanced language or programming course and expect them to do well. We need better user guides. Both expanded with tons of detail, and a condensed version for quick reference.
 
HELP:
Help comes, but neither often nor quickly. By the time your question is answered, you may not need it answered or may have lost motivation in general. We should make the Discord group more prominent with an explanation in the Welcome area for PureZC, and feature an "Active" group chat for those online in the last couple days so we can keep each other on-track for our goals and encourage activity within the community.
 
ULTIMATELY:
Never abandon this site, as the die-hards won't stop making quests and sharing with each other. Expand if you want to by being more active in engaging the community via social media, but don't act like it's anything you don't have control over. Everything can always be influenced if nothing else.

 
Have you actually used other game engines--at all?
 
SMBX, Pico-8, Solarus, RPG Maker, gamemaker. All of these require basic to advanced comprehension of scripting or programming. Some of them, such as solarus, absolutely mandate that you learn it:
 
https://www.solarus-...st/lua_api.html
 
Here is a fun excerpt from https://www.solarus-...ua_api_map.html :
 

-- Example of a map with 3 switches to activate in the correct order.
-- We assume that 3 switches exist with names "puzzle_switch_1", "puzzle_switch_2" and "puzzle_switch_3".
local map = ...
local game = map:get_game()

function map:on_started()
  map.next_switch_index = 1
  -- Equivalent to: map["next_switch_index"] = 1
end

-- Called when the player walks on the switch named "puzzle_switch_1".
function puzzle_switch_1:on_activated()
  -- Check that puzzle_switch_1 is the correct switch to activate.
  map:check_switch(self)
end

function puzzle_switch_2:on_activated()
  map:check_switch(self)
end

function puzzle_switch_3:on_activated()
  map:check_switch(self)
end

function map:check_switch(switch)
  if switch:get_name() == "puzzle_switch_" .. map.next_switch_index then
    -- Okay so far.
    map.next_switch_index = map.next_switch_index + 1
    if map.next_switch_index > 3 then
      -- Finished!
      sol.audio.play_sound("secret")
      game:start_dialog("congratulations")
    end
  else
    -- Wrong switch: reset the puzzle.
    sol.audio.play_sound("wrong")
    puzzle_switch_1:set_activated(false)
    puzzle_switch_2:set_activated(false)
    puzzle_switch_3:set_activated(false)
    map.next_switch_index = 1
  end
end

All that I see here, is a lot of complaining and criticism, without any actual review of what ZQE/ZCP 2.55 and above can and will do, in operation. Absolutely nothing that 2.10 or 2.50 could do have been removed. Moving to a model where the actual code that executes is positioned in a way that allows the user to manipulate it more readily has been part of the plan for over six years...

Opening the frontier to people who want an alternative to the extremely convoluted software that exists, particularly a free one, does not degrade ZC in the least. The current content will always be part of the Zelda Classic module, and people can use that as they see fit.

Allowing people to make alternative modules, such as my RPG module, or Gameboy or other gameplay modules will open the door to new possibilities with the software, without losing a single existing feature.

As to many of your other remarks, I think that you entirely fail to comprehend that scripts in ZC are never mandatory, AND that prepackaged content requires absolutely no fundamental knowledge of programming to use--only to modify internally. It is no different to modifying the engine, except that it is far easier, won't break anything, and does not require core knowledge of C++ memory control and other facets of 'real' programming.

Several hobbyist scripters have learnt the hard way that modifying ZC internally is neither a fun, nor an easy task, particularly for things such as hardcoded enemies. The slightest change to one aspect of these elements, will completely break existing games made using the software. Porting the elements to use prepackaged scripts allows for portability and complete control, and further, it means that the end user can modify base enemies such as Gohma, without completely wrecking the engine, learning how to work with proper C++ code (particularly cleanly), and without issues in supporting future versions.

You can download scripted assets from ZC.com now, and literally insert them into a quest with about two minutes of time. You need never look at them internally, nor even invoke the compiler. Simply download them, and add them to your quest in ZQU, and they are ready to use. Modules are the same thing: Download the module, open ZQ, load the module from the menus, and create a quest using it.

With regard to ZC as a 'smartphone app', this is not feasible at this time, because our libraries do not support the ARm architecture, nor would I think it'd be enjoyable in general. I cannot imaging trying to play a ZC quest with a tiny device and on-screen buttons. I

Mobile phones work best for games that are fully-touch based. I have however played it on a Windows 10 tablet, so, Windows 10 intel-compliant devices can run it, and I have been putting together a package that should--in theory--come with and fully support virtual (on-screen) controls for ZC Player.

Some windows touchscreens also work with ZC, but others do not. My old laptop touch screen did under Win7, and I used it to play Engage to Zeldawok, back in 2017 or 2016; but sor some reason, my Win10 tablet does not work for this, and I have absolutely no clue why. Must be a driver issue with the touchscreen, or simply a difference in how Windows now reads the device. :shrug:

 

On the topic of 'Help', there is an official ZC Discord server, with Help channels run by the staff, and supported by users. On the forums, a quick search may turn up answers faster than waiting on a response, but ultimately if you want assistance, you need to make it very clear what issue you are having. often people won't respond due to lack of clarity, or insufficient information.

 

Last, I have been writing a proper manual for ZScript that explains the fundamental concepts in its first chapters. It's a side-project, that will take a while, but everything thus far includes examples.


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#85 Jamian

Jamian

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 01:50 PM

I also don't see how porting ZC to smartphones would help anything... Not to mention it would not be a port, but a different program altogether. How are you going to comfortably play a ZC quest on a smartphone? You need a controller or a keyboard to play properly.

 

Writing code in ZScript is also definitely not "advanced programming", unless you want to make it do things it wasn't expected to do in the first place (like a 3D world, etc.). It is basic programming. It has a learning curve, but it's manageable if you have motivation. I didn't know how to code when I started ZScripting.


Edited by Jamian, 14 November 2019 - 01:51 PM.


#86 coolgamer012345

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 05:00 PM

I learned programming with ZScript



#87 Hari

Hari

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 07:06 PM

This post is in response to the following thread from AGN (the thread in question is basically an extension of this thread):

https://www.armagedd...3ef4ce&p=921378

(I didn't want to make an account on AGN just for one post, so that's why I'm responding here, lol)

 

 

First of all, let's address the title and first paragraph of this post, as it really sets a bad tone for the entire thing.

Zelda Classic - its future. 35+ adults only please

This is intended as a discussion for older people who are more mature in life and who aren't playing Zelda Classic - allowing you to be clear minded, rational and objective in your thoughts no matter how nasty they might be. But you should have been a fan of Zelda Classic at some point in your life preferably when it was first out in the early 2000s like myself. I tried a thread like this in pure but it seems like the younger people there don't really take well to it so hopefully if I post here they shouldn't go near it.

 

Right off, the way this post is presented makes you seem really pretentious, James.

 

You're saying that because you're older than many of the people on PureZC, that makes your opinion more clear minded, rational, and objective. This simply isn't how it is. Being older in age doesn't necessarily make one more mature. (Not that I'm saying you're not mature or anything)

 

By making this statement, you've already established yourself as being pretentious, which isn't a great start to this post.

 

Also, I find the last sentence ironic because, here I am, going near the post. :P

 

With that out of the way, I will now give my response to the actual content of this post.

 

 

As you might know from pure, the fanbase of Zelda Classic is diminishing year by year. There are fewer quests made each year, fewer visitors and fewer quest makers.

 

We should all remember back to the pre-scripting days. The glory days of ZC - its golden age. I remember it like yesterday - thousands of fans and virtually everyone was a quest maker. 

 

These statements are objectively false. Anthus has already done an analysis of the number of quests released each year here that disproves these statements.

 

585 Total Quests (This list may be off by one or two, but I tried to make it as accurate as possible)

34.41 Average per Year
Highest: 88 Quests in 2013
Lowest: 16 Quests in 2008
 
2018 - 22 |||||||||| |||||||||| ||
2017 - 31 |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||| |
2016 - 36 |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||| ||||||
2015 - 38 |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||| ||||||||
2014 - 68 |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||| ||||||||
2013 - 88 |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||| ||||||||
2012 - 32 |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||| ||
2011 - 29 |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||
2010 - 24 |||||||||| |||||||||| ||||
2009 - 30 |||||||||| |||||||||| ||||||||||
2008 - 16 |||||||||| ||||||
2007 - 32 |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||| ||
2006 - 48 |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||| |||||||||| ||||||||
2005 - 22 |||||||||| |||||||||| ||
2004 - 28 |||||||||| |||||||||| ||||||||
2003 - 24 |||||||||| |||||||||| ||||
2002 - 17 |||||||||| |||||||

 

As you can see in this diagram, there was about as much questmaking activity in the "golden age" as there is now. Therefore, there isn't fewer quests being released relative to the "golden age." Also, the spike in 2013 and 2014 would be considered outliers and therefore cannot be used to show that ZC is dying. Trying to use that as evidence for ZC dying would be a dishonest use of these statistics since the number of quests released each year is about the same before and after the outlier years.

 

Also, the years with most quests released (2013-2014) were after 2.50 had been released, and quests with heavy scripting were already beginning to be released at that time. This disproves that scripting is what caused the decrease in quest releases.

 

 

Recently, there was a 6th quest contest and the results of it should be very depressing compared to the glory days of the 3rd quest contest. You all remember how successful that was right? What's worrisome about it is that there was a very low turn out of would-be contestants and only a handful actually finished their quests. It says to me that quest makers are finding it too expensive to make a quest they think is quality and that will sell well to everyone else. What should be even more worrisome is that all the completions are heavily scripted apart from Gleeok's and Glenn's older completions which no one would even go near. I tried the newer completions and I'm thinking to myself "how on earth would a newbie quest maker learn to do all this?". One of the newer completions is going to be the winner of the quest contest - I have no doubt. I have this picture in my mind of a newcomer to ZC using it for the first time and absolutely in awe of the 6th quest winner. They aspire to make a quest like that. Then they see how much scripting they have to learn to make something similar to it. And they are forever put off quest making.

 

There's a lot to unpack here. First of all, you act like there weren't a lot of would-be contests. This is false.There were 16, which is quite a few.

 

Also, you act like it somehow proves that ZC is dying that only 5 entries were completed in time. This is perfectly normal for a contest in which there is a time limit. People quit for many reasons, including but not limited to: procrastination, being too ambitious, not working fast enough, etc. This sort of thing happens often in contests with time limits, whether it's a ZC contest, a game jam, etc.

 

Also, if upon seeing that it takes work to make a good quest, a newcomer immediately quits, then that's their problem. There are plenty of people in the community who are willing to help them get better at questmaking. It takes work to make a good quest, regardless of whether scripting is involved.

 

Another thing. Many of the entries that weren't finished in time are still being developed. For example, I am still working on my entry and plan to release sometime during the next several months.

 

 

 

A lot of your post has the sentiment that scripting is killing ZC. However, I hold the opinion that this is not the case.

 

With the additions made in 2.50, 2.53, and now 2.55, it has become easier than ever for someone to make a good quest with minimal or even no scripting. It will still take a lot of work to make a good quest, but that should be a given.

 

Plus, if someone wants to include scripting in their quest, they don't have to do any scripting themselves. There are plenty of easy to use scripts on the database (especially Moosh's), and they can request scripts in the script request forum on PureZC.

 

If a newcomer wants to learn scripting, there are tutorials around, and there are many experienced people around that they can ask for help.

 

Basically, the point is that regardless of whether scripts are used, making a quest is hard work. However, there are plenty of people around who are willing to help newcomers learn the ropes of making a quest. It is up to the newcomer to seek help when they need it.

 

 

 

Another issue I take with your post is your assertion that the people on PureZC don't like NES quests.

 

Please note that the following point is not supported by hard evidence, but by anecdotal evidence. However, I could take a poll of the community, and I'm fairly sure that the poll would back up this point.

 

Anyways, many people from PureZC that I have talked to previously have made remarks about liking NES quests, as long as they are well made. These people include Shane, Avaro, etc. I know that I myself hold the same view in regards to NES quests. One of my all time favorite quests, The Hero's Memory, is considered a NES quest.

 

As this point shows, there are still people around who enjoy NES quests. I would have to take a poll in order to have hard evidence, but I think this anecdotal evidence should be sufficient to back up this point. (However, if you want numbers to prove this, then I would be willing to conduct a poll)

 

 

The reason why ZC was so successful was because the entry requirements for becoming a quest maker were very low.

 

The entry requirements still remain low. Anyone can download the program and their tileset of choice and start making a quest. If they need help, they can ask for it on the forums or in the community Discord server.

 

As I stated above, it is easier now than ever to make a good quest. I must stress once again that it will take hard work, but that should be a given. Once again, there are plenty of people around who are willing to help newcomers.

 

Also, no one is requiring a newcomer to learn how to script. If they want to learn scripting, then they can look at tutorials or ask for help.

 

There's no need to elaborate on this point further as I would just be repeating what I have already state earlier in my response.

 

 

The scripting genie has been let out of the bottle and it can never be put back in. Even if it could, the modern fanbase would never accept NES Zelda again and there would be too much work involved to remake ZC's engine so that it has the features that the modern fanbase wants. So what are the solutions to this problem? I don't see any solution to this problem outside of a very long shot. Credit to Zoria - at least he sees the writing on the wall and has a plan to fix it. The solution involves getting rid of the Zelda branding in the game's engine so that copyright isn't an issue anymore. Then, "pro" quest makers who have mastered scripting can sell their quests to the ZC fanbase like any normal steam game. We're all older in life and should know how important money is and how influential and necessary it is hmm? There are inherent and obvious risks with this plan - firstly getting rid of the Zelda branding is going to hurt the game's popularity and reach. Zelda is iconic and replacing it with something else is going to attract fewer aspirants. Secondly, is the ZC fanbase going to accept paying for their games like a steam game? Another drawcard for ZC is that its completely free to play and changing that is going to be a very risky move. Finally, allowing quest makers to sell their quest doesn't solve the problem of investment. Quest makers need their money as they are making the quest - not when their quest is finally made.

 

This entire paragraph seems to devolve into conspiracy theory territory.

 

A major reason that Zoria is trying to remove copyrighted material is so that ZC is safe from a C&D from Nintendo. A C&D from Nintendo would do a lot more harm to the community than less activity. (though the degree to which there is less activity is debatable. Most of the activity has simply moved from the forums to Discord)

 

Removing the copyrighted material from ZC is not some conspiracy to make money for the top quest makers. Most people who make quests make them as a hobby, not to bring financial benefit to them. If they were doing it for financial benefit, then they wouldn't be making free fangames in the first place.

 

Anyways, I highly doubt that paid quests are going to become prevalent. To put it bluntly, quests made in ZC aren't ever going to feel completely professional in my opinion. If someone wants to make a game to sell, they are more likely to use a modern engine such as Unity or Unreal.

 

Also, making conspiracy theories such as this is definitely not helpful for the community in any capacity.

Another thing, just because ZC becomes copyright free doesn't mean that quests are required to be copyright free. People will still mostly be making Zelda fangames, so a copyright free ZC won't be creating a barrier to entry for newcomers.

 

 

 

But what other choice does ZC have? The status quo is almost certainly going to lead to game over. What are your thoughts?

 

I beg to differ. In my opinion, the status quo is not going to lead to the death of ZC. There is still a lot of activity, it has just mostly moved from the forums to Discord. As long as there are still people making quests, then ZC won't be dying for a while. I don't plan on ceasing quest development for a long time.

 

Also, when 2.55 is officially released (which will likely be in at least a year or two), there will most likely be a huge spike in activity. At that point, ZC will be much further from dying.

 

 

 

I hope that you read this over carefully and fully consider the points that I have made.

Also, James, if your ignore the evidence that I have provided like you have done previously when others have presented evidence to you, then you are only proving the point I made at the start of this post. By doing that, you will be proving that being older doesn't mean that your opinion is more objective.

 

Basically, don't ignore the evidence that I, along with many others, have provided both in this post and previously. Otherwise, you are making your own opinion less credible.

 

 

 

Thanks for reading this long ass post, lol.

 

I tried to be concise. :P


Edited by Yoshot, 06 February 2020 - 07:11 PM.

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#88 NoeL

NoeL

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 09:08 PM

This shit again!? :rolleyes:

 

Look, James's argument is fine, but his conclusions aren't supported.

 

Scripting -> more you can do.

More you can do -> more that is expected (by the community).

More that is expected -> more to learn/implement

More to learn/implement -> more time investment.

More time investment -> more burnout.

More burnout -> poorer quests started:completed ratio.

 

I think it's pretty safe to say that this is an accurate reflection of reality. Whenever you add complexity you raise the barrier to entry - that's pretty straightforward.

 

BUT:

More complexity -> less interest.

Less interest -> fewer completed quests.

Fewer completed quests -> steady decline and eventual death of the community.

 

This is all unsupported - and arguably falsified - by evidence. There's no (good) evidence that scripting is responsible for a decline in interest in ZC, or presenting a threat to the community. We've seen a correlation in the decline of quest releases and forum activity since the introduction of scripting, but that's all. Saying scripting caused the decline is a fair hypothesis, but IMO it's a weaker hypothesis that what others have argued (i.e. transition from forums to discord, observed drop-off between big ZC releases).

 

My personal belief is that the current state of PZC is a combination of these factors. I do believe scripting is partially responsible for fewer quests being completed, but I don't believe this is causing a decline in interest in ZC or represents the death/dying of a community. On the contrary, I think having that freedom is attractive to newcomers and gets more people in the door to begin with.

 

You also need to bear in mind that 2D Zelda is a thing of the past, and naturally gets less and less relevant to those in the "quest developer window" (maybe 13-30 years old) over time. 15-20 years ago, people were developing quests alongside comparable official releases. Those quest makers were intimately familiar with 2D Zelda, having grown up playing those games. Nowadays, those 13-30 year olds might not have ever played a 2D Zelda before, or at least didn't grow up with them and thus lack the nostalgia for them. An old-school 2D Zelda maker just isn't going to have the mass appeal that it had 20 years ago, and this would be true with or without scripting. With that in mind, it's possible PZC would be in an even WORSE state had scripting never been implemented, not better.

 

In short: James, your argument STILL doesn't hold water. Why are you just repeating yourself when everyone has pointed this out already?


Edited by NoeL, 06 February 2020 - 09:09 PM.

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#89 Shane

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 09:58 PM

To anyone wondering, while I can't speak for other entrants fully, none of the 6th quest contest entrants have actually cancelled their projects. It was due to health/school/job reasons that we couldn't make it. There were some that didn't find the inspiration, but most entrants are still working on their quests and are either close to completion or have made substantial progress. I think we all knew James would be using the turnout to further his agenda and twist the facts. But these new "facts" that are only half true should show anyone rational that his doom and gloom nonsense is still very much unsupported, but I'm preaching to a choir so... :shrug:


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#90 Aevin

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 10:00 PM

I do feel the need to put in my two cents that I personally think this recent contest was a huge success. We have four finished entries, and as far as I can tell, they're all really high quality quests. Many of the entrants got a lot of mileage out of their entries and intend to finish them later. And on top of that, the sense of creative synergy, encouragement, and community that arose out of this contest was delightful for those who actually took part in it. Yeah, sure, interest in the program and the community has declined compared to some previous years, but personally, I think 2020 has started with a bang.


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