234 replies to this topic

[Orithan]

>* It's no longer possible to buy items with rupees that are already being drained away.
I didn't even know that was actually possible.

Was this NES behaviour? Because that sounds useful.

Not as far as I know. Even if it is, you wouldn't have enough time to buy two items with that money. Abuse of a mechanical bug like that is poor quest design like what Zoria RPG said.

[Timelord]

I can see offering it as a quest rule for people who demand cheating or mechanics abuse in their quests, but I also believe that mechanic-abuse as a mandatory game action is merely poor quest design. The real question is: How difficult is it to keep it as a quest rule that you can enable, rather than merely fixing it?

I do not recall ever being able to do that trick on original hardware. In ZC, with some versions, perhaps in 1st.qst, but not the actual game. if it did work in the original game, then the time it took to activate the armos sentinel, revel the staircase, hear the 'secret' jingle, and enter would have kept it from being used in this way.

Honestly, the fact that a quest done in a beta may not work on 2.50 final is what is keeping me from completing anything very detailed, as i don't want to re-work everything. There is always a balance between compatibility and bug-prevention h, so you can expect other flaws to vanish.

Many quest-makers use lanmolas for 'recharge stations' in their quests, and this is due to a bug in the ZC engine. Once that bug is gone, then their recharge rooms will function as pain rooms. That one does need to be a quest rule, for that very reason; mandatory cheating probably does not.

Well, as I'm working on layout and story before any scripting--even before enemy placement--not much will affect the design of the game between versions, but some of the features I wanted to incorporate may not make it and some have (that I did not expect to be included), allowing me to incorporate them into the story and the layout. If they are disabled, that would break the design, but not cripple it, and I'd work around the changes.

The lanmolas are only an issue for grandfathering: Quests designed in earlier 2.5 betas, 2.10 and 1.9x often use lanmola rooms as places to restock hearts and rupies... This exploits a ZC engine flaw (?) that counts every lanmola segment as an enemy with a potential item drop. If this is changed / fixed, then quests that rely on it will also break. Not a huge problem for people with an older OS that can run older versions of ZC, but it does mean that many quests may have issues with 2.5, including recently published quests that run in 2.10 and 2.5 RC3 (or below).

I doubt that is the only thing that would break, which is my point, as a subtle change can affect game-in-progress in profound ways. An easy dungeon with lanmola recharge rooms suddenly becomes far more difficult, if not impossibly hard, if lanmolas count as a single enemy: The 'recharge' does away, and you end up with a difficult mid-boss in its place.

That's why some changes need to be quest rules, and in order to ensure that any backward-compatibility remains, the quest rule for this would be 'Lanmolas count as one enemy', that you'd need to enable, keeping the behaviour of a drop on every segment the normal method of operation, with th option to change it.

The shop bug is debatable as using and expecting that--something that is not commonly known--in games is pretty silly. The only thing it does for the player is to save time on grinding. That comes down to the same type of design argument as setting an item to 999 rupies: You can set it to 501 or 650 and still require a large wallet of some kind, so why set it to 999 (especially if the item is mandatory)?

The blue ring in 1st.qst is 250, and therefore about 2x the average cost of a shield. It is easily the most useful item in the game, but you need to grind or find hidden money to buy it. When the game came out in 1986, nobody knew where to find anything. There were no strategy guides, and it took a long time to uncover secrets, especially as there were no indications for things like bombable walls or block puzzles.

high item costs added to the game in two ways: they make it take longer to complete, and pique the interest of the player to explore, trying to find them for less, or to find hidden money. These are the reasons to set item value high in a game in which you can just circle six screens and collect rupies on each until you max-out and can afford the item you want. This is even more true if you have item drops on bushes and grass.

Given all of that, I think the number of people that could ever expect a player to cheat would be small, and this probably doesn't need to be a quest rule. I have no idea how hard it would be to toggle between the cheat-able and non-cheat-able shoppes.

[Saffith]

I suppose it's a good sign that there aren't bigger problems to discuss, but this is getting kind of ridiculous. I'll make the shop thing a quest rule and the lanmola thing a misc. attribute. Might do the same for moldorms. All right?

[Kite]

When I use standalone mode (I'm using it through ZCM), the save file name ends up using as much of the quest file path as possible. This normally wouldn't matter since you can't see the save select when using standalone, but there is the end quest credits...



Edit: I just wanted to add that I really love the palette pasting. I pretty much instantly added that as a favorite command.

Edited by Nick, 06 November 2012 - 04:12 PM.

[SpacemanDan]

So thank you for fixing the issue I had with large LWeapon animations! Works fine now.

However, I did happen upon this oddity with FFCs which is kinda sorta similar. Maybe I did something wrong though. :S

Clickity!

[Orithan]

I suppose it's a good sign that there aren't bigger problems to discuss, but this is getting kind of ridiculous. I'll make the shop thing a quest rule and the lanmola thing a misc. attribute. Might do the same for moldorms. All right?

I'm confused. I gave it a whirl in RC 5 and the Lanmolas still drop items per body segment. Was this fix done already? Oh well, I still have a Lanmola item dropset made specifically in an attempt to rectify this problem.

[CastChaos]

Works like charm so far! Some bugs that I simply couldn't fix while using RC2 simply doesn't occur in RC5 without me changing anything. A past rogue carry over works normally now and as I keep playing the file, all warps take me where it was intended. Pretty exciting so far. I hope nothing malicious turns up eventually.
Time for replaying everything in my quest and then for powerquestmaking. May it be peaceful. And may it be the same in regards of everything, as the great Stream proclaimed.

[Timelord]

I suppose it's a good sign that there aren't bigger problems to discuss, but this is getting kind of ridiculous. I'll make the shop thing a quest rule and the lanmola thing a misc. attribute. Might do the same for moldorms. All right?

That would be brilliant, actually. I'm not trying to fault you in any way: I'm just pointing out how some changes could break certain quests. The real fault is that quest-designers exploited glitches in the first-place to achieve a goal for the player.

Using enemies to allow a player to gain health or wealth, rather than supplying a healing pond or hidden money is a prime example, and that is not the fault of the programers.

I'm testing the software for serious bugs or conflicts, but I have yet to discover anything critical. I also think the colour-change thing I mentioned at the end of the RC4 page (not aware of RC5 at the time) is due to the Windows-7 background changing feature. When the desktop BG changes automatically, it affects the colour-depth of ZC for a moment. Exiting full-screen and re-entering restores it, so I'm guessing this is an Allegro bug.

I'm going to drop my save-datum and Origin into RC5 and play it through to see if there is anything else to report; unless there is a better quest to use for testing that isn't horribly difficult. I started PoS, but I'm not sure I can do a serious playtest of the engine with a hard game in any reasonable time-frame. I will submit any problems that I might encounter forthwith, nonetheless.

[b]Report I:[/bP When I copy all of the RC5 files (except for qst.dat and zc.sav) over the RC4 versions, I receive an error trying to resolve the paths on my quests. (It cannot find them.) has something changed for path-handling between RC4 and RcC?

Edited by ZoriaRPG, 07 November 2012 - 07:45 PM.

[Three Pendants]

I think I've run across a problem. When I make changes in my quest the system does not let me just "save" I have to go to SaveAs and overwrite the file every single time. I do not think that's the intention there.

EDIT: Oh, all options were just reinitialized is all.

EDIT2: Here's an odd glitch. The NPC Script v2 works in RC4 but not RC5

Edited by Three Pendants, 07 November 2012 - 11:30 PM.

[CastChaos]

OK, I played through what is in my quest so far in ZC2.50RC5, and I must say that... I'm impressed and surprised!
For the first time ever since I started to using betas (2006's summer) this was the first time I could play without gamestopping bugs and without bugs that required heavy quest alterations to stop being gameplay stopping. And I see only one single eye bothering thing.

So, there are 2 things that didn't work for me in RC2 and they still don't work:

1. Default Ghini 2 doesn't move in specific quest
When I made my first RC2 quest, the Ghini 2 worked as it should. In my latest one, it was just standing there, even though I changed nothing, I left the settings at default (it has 62 for step speed), only thing I did that I redrew the tiles on spot (so I didn't even assign new tile spots for it). I'm confused. Not gamestopping and not that big of a problem, but certainly something that questions "final version stability", unless it doesn't occur to anyone else. Maybe I try making another Ghini 2 and/or trying the default one in a test quest again tomorrow...

2. New pol's voice type enemy is half garbage
When I initially made a new pol's voice type enemy in RC2 (one that is weak only to the candle item), it all was well. Then, without me changing anything the jump tiles started to be read from the first tilepage, making that enemy look like a flashing rolling player animation while jumping. So, this pol's voice has 2 rows of tiles as usual. The assigned tile is the first one of the first row. So the first row is used for walking animation normally. And the jumping animation should always be read from the row one tile lower than the walking animation row, but nooo, it takes it from tilepage 0 tile 0. And it's like that in RC5, too. This is harder to get through than the last one, but still not gamestopping, even more, at least this enemy works (just doesn't look too fabolous). This is the only eyesore thing I found in RC5 so far.


The best thing is that all the faulty carry overs are correct now without me changing anything, so it WAS RC2 bug. The warp destination bug is seemly fixed, too, so... I'm trying not to, but... I feel happy and content and excited. I will measure how long this lasts with a stopwatch.

So, items, scripts, all and all worked for me so far. But why?

[Saffith]

[b]Report I:[/bP When I copy all of the RC5 files (except for qst.dat and zc.sav) over the RC4 versions, I receive an error trying to resolve the paths on my quests. (It cannot find them.) has something changed for path-handling between RC4 and RcC?

Hm, I don't think there were any changes that would do that. Did you delete ag.cfg? That would make it forget the quest directory and default to the program directory. That's all I can think of.

EDIT2: Here's an odd glitch. The NPC Script v2 works in RC4 but not RC5

This one, right? Did you compile it in RC5 or was it a quest made in an earlier build?

1. Default Ghini 2 doesn't move in specific quest

Which quest is this in?

2. New pol's voice type enemy is half garbage

Huh. Can you show me the tile page and enemy settings, or perhaps send me the quest?

[Timelord]

Hm, I don't think there were any changes that would do that. Did you delete ag.cfg? That would make it forget the quest directory and default to the program directory. That's all I can think of.

Urk.. I feel like a dumbass, but you're possibly right. I'll check it again tomorrow,although the exact error was something like 'Could not locate file C:\path\cz25rc5\quests\/quest.qst.' Note that there is a backward slash and a forward slash in the middle of the path. I'll try to jot down the exact message if you need it.

(Did you ever fix the issue with .sav files breaking when swapping them from Windows to Mac/Linux, with the path hierarchy & nomenclature differences?)


Anyhow...
I have noted two sets of problems in zelda-w; whether you can do anything about them is another matter.

First Issue Fade to Pink:
Two, are quite similar, and have to do with background process changes to the desktop:
1> Whenever any pop-up (e.g. Update request) message appears, the border of the screen goes momentarily from black, and flashes like pink lightning. This fixes itself in a flash.
2> If a rotating backdrop is in use, say one that updates every hour, then the background becomes pink and the colours shift across the board until you exit and then re-enter fullscreen mode.
This also was an issue in RC4, and probably earlier versions; I never saw it on XP though: Only with W7.

Now, I'm guessing this is an allegro issue, and perhaps setting ZC to a colour depth of 16 or 24 would stop it from happening, but I wanted to mention it.

Second issue Joypad Woes:

The more critical problem seems to do with quests that have 'allow diagonal walking' enabled. With five different controllers, I have noted that on such quests, some movement becomes scrambled. Down becomes left, or left becomes down. Stuff like that. I'm going to test SoW with one of the worst-offending controllers to see if it does the same thing, but I wanted to mention it in advance.

I never had this issue with a retroUSB adapter and a factory NES/SNES controller, but the clone USB controllers seem to display this phenomenon, and diagonal movement quests exaggerate it terribly. One controller proved unusable in Path of Shadows, and I will retest it with Souls of Wisdom, as that quest does not have this rule enabled. The others are 'stumbly', and exhibit this behaviour at times, but the first, which was highly reviewed, was truly awful. I'm not joking when I say that pressing left moved me up and left along a cave wall[/u]...

I'm guessing there is some kind of bus conflict involved, or merely the rubbish PIC code they they use in the controllers, not sending proper signals for the joystick engine.

Lastly, quests from 2.10 and 1.9x don't seem to permit using a joypad in 2.50RC5 on Windows-7. I loaded [i]'Lexx' for example, and none of the controls work at all once I load them game, although thy do work in the file select menus. Is this a limitation based on changes to the controller mechanics, or is it a Windows-7 issue? In any case, I tried several pre-2.50 quests that all had the same issue.

I can air-post one of the controllers for you to try wit a few quests and see the issue for yourself. I need to replace my retroUSB (I manged to misplace it somewhere) and try factory pads to see if this issue happens with them as well.

Notably, this doesn't seem to happen so notable in 'Carnage in Space', but the movement in that game is quite different to normal Zelda quest walking.

Here is a screen grab of the 'fade to pink' issue:



On a final note, early this morning after playing SoW, and then Lost Isle, and saving a game (Lost Isle), I closed ZC. When I later relaunched it, my quests were toast---gone, blank--all empty slots. Fortunately, I was easily able to restore them from a backup, and lost nothing--let this be a reminder to everyone to back up your zc.sav files frequently--but others may not be so lucky. Perhaps it may be an idea to make an auto-backup every few hours an an option to enable?

ZC didn't crash, but on exiting, there was a ghost instance of it still running that I had to terminate. I have seen this several times now: A ZC icon remains in the system tray/dock and it still appears in task Manager, but it's not actually running.

Maybe these are known issues, and maybe not. If you need any specific information, or want me to try to run through any steps that you would suggest to narrow down the cause, I'd be happy to assist.

[Eurysilas]

Hey, there you are. I tried removing the controllers from that MIDI from Hero of Dreams; could you try this one and see if it has the same problem?

What other problems are there on Mac.

As of release candidate three there were definite OS X MIDI problems. It seems you were incorrect about it being specific to the MIDI. All through my HoD playthrough, I encountered occasional MIDI anomalies. Most often it was manifested as a failure to even start an area's designated MIDI tune; I'd just get silence until I switched to another area. Then there was "Dream On", which plays fine outside Zelda Classic, and even in ZQuest, but not when in a playthrough of the game itself.

I have not tested RC4 or RC5 (other than seeing if they would even run).

Here's an odd bit, though-

When setting large mode, the "scale" variable is NOT entirely ignored. For instance, if I set scale, then open ZQuest, then attempt to set fullscreen in-program, it actually resizes the window to match the "scale" parameter!

Perhaps there's a way to make this intended behavior on the Mac? Setting fullscreen in ag.cfg or in-program still does not work, but this would largely null the need for a working fullscreen at all.

[Gleeok]

------------ >8 snip, snip------------------

Hi.

The windows explorer palette changed bug was fixed. It sounds like a bug with windows not sending the proper events to 8-bit DX applications. I don't know how this can be fixed.

32-bit color should work fine but keep in mind that menus will not be visible. (I could not find a fix for this... it's complicated)

Does the joypad issue resolve itself in RC4? If not it's (again) an allegro issue also.

I also sometimes get the "app hang" issue on winXP. I added a config file option "force_quit=0" which may or may not work for you. Set it to 1 to enable it.

[trudatman]

the moldorm/lanmola issue bothers me. if I remember correctly, lanmolas should award a none/ruby/heart/fairy drop when the head is killed and moldorms should never give anything. another thing I don't understand is the two death blips (blood spatters) from a single dodongo. I get that he is two parts wide sometimes, but he didn't used to do that. he didn't do that in the original game, did he? stuff.