14 replies to this topic

[Christian]

How can i have permanent secrets triggered in an Interior Map? No matter what i do, the secrets don't ever stay permament. Sorry, I haven't used Zelda Classic in a while so I'm a bit rusty.

[Mero]

How can i have permanent secrets triggered in an Interior Map? No matter what i do, the secrets don't ever stay permament. Sorry, I haven't used Zelda Classic in a while so I'm a bit rusty.

Have you tried using Step->Secrets (Sensitive, Pemanment) combos. "Make the appear when the secret is triggered and force the player to walk over them to leave the screen."

[Christian]

Hmmm, didn't thought about that one but it's actually the "Block->Trigger" that is causing the secrets not to stay permanent. Anyway around this?

The puzzle is to have Link push the block combo into a "Block->Trigger" flag in order to trigger the secret treasure chest. It works, but i need the Treasure Chest to stay triggered permanent.

[Radien]

You need to either make a permanent trigger appear when the puzzle is solved (via secret combos), or have a perm. trigger that becomes accessible once it is solved, and then force the player to walk over that trigger.

In earlier versions of ZC, perm. triggers that appeared via Secret Combos were not capable of making secrets permanent. I have heard that they now are, in RC1 if not other prior versions.

[Christian]

I am using 2.5 Build 1346. Does that count as new? Also, do you mind giving me an example of what you're talking about Radien? When it comes to work arounds in ZC, i tend to get pretty confused =S

[Radien]

I am using 2.5 Build 1346. Does that count as new? Also, do you mind giving me an example of what you're talking about Radien? When it comes to work arounds in ZC, i tend to get pretty confused =S

I don't know when exactly the bug was fixed (since the developers had apparently classified it as a bug). You are using a newer version than I am, so perhaps it was fixed? Here, let me describe the bug. Supposing you designed the following:

1. Secret is triggered (through a temporary method)
2. Temporary trigger causes a perm. trigger combo to appear
3. Player steps on perm. trigger combo

...If this happens, in versions of ZC that had the bug, the trigger would NOT, in fact, become permanent, even after stepping on the perm. trigger combo.

At some point, this bug was fixed. When? I don't know exactly. But I know that the bug is gone in RC1, according to someone's earlier report after trying it in a different thread.

But on a simpler note:

* Yes, if you trigger a secret with a pushblock, particularly if it is a "Push -> Wait" type combo, the trigger will be temporary.

* Yes, "perm. trigger" combos are a way to circumvent DMaps that usually reset secrets after you leave a screen.


Make sure you look through quest rules, screen data, and DMap rules, too. In various releases of ZQuest v2.5, there are a number of options for toggling between temporary/permanent secrets in various locations.

[Christian]

So my secrets aren't permanent because I am using a block->trigger combo? So there is no way to make it permanent through a block then right? :/ This really sucks as it's awkward to have an opened treasure chest being triggered by doing the same puzzle since it didn't stay permanent.

[Radien]

So my secrets aren't permanent because I am using a block->trigger combo? So there is no way to make it permanent through a block then right? :/ This really sucks as it's awkward to have an opened treasure chest being triggered by doing the same puzzle since it didn't stay permanent.

Oh yes, that's right: yes, Block Trigger flags also result in temporary secrets. I was talking about "Push - Wait" combos, which are a slightly different method, but both methods act as a temporary secret trigger. Even if your DMap supports permanent secrets, not all triggers will result in permanent secrets. Some types of trigger flags/combos are always temporary.

I wouldn't necessarily say there is no way to make it permanent -- in fact, there is probably a perfectly good solution to your problem -- but at this point it would really help to see the screen you are trying to work with. With Block Trigger flags, you'll have to work around this problem on a case-by-case basis. It's not as hard as it sounds, though. Can we see a screenshot?

[Christian]

Oh yes, that's right: yes, Block Trigger flags also result in temporary secrets. I was talking about "Push - Wait" combos, which are a slightly different method, but both methods act as a temporary secret trigger. Even if your DMap supports permanent secrets, not all triggers will result in permanent secrets. Some types of trigger flags/combos are always temporary.

I wouldn't necessarily say there is no way to make it permanent -- in fact, there is probably a perfectly good solution to your problem -- but at this point it would really help to see the screen you are trying to work with. With Block Trigger flags, you'll have to work around this problem on a case-by-case basis. It's not as hard as it sounds, though. Can we see a screenshot?

Here's a screenshot of the puzzle:


Now the problem is that, whenever i push the block to the trigger switch, it works and reveals a chest, but if the player leaves the screen without picking up the chest OR if the player picks up the item from the treasure chest and re-enter the screen, the secret won't ever stay permanent. I've tried everything i can do to make it permanent and it just doesn't work. It's frustrating really =/

[Radien]

Alrighty. First of all, some good news:

I have made puzzles which caused "treasure chest" combos to appear before, and no matter what I did with them, they always did basically what they were supposed to (stay open after item was acquired), even when combo cycling was introduced. So I don't think you have to worry about that messing up your puzzle.

Now, one thing I must clarify: ZC is set up so that the block will always appear in its starting position after you reenter the screen. It's not terribly difficult to make the treasure chest appear and stay put, but I hope you don't mind if the block warps back to where it started. I once figured out a way to make it appear that the block stays put, but it was pretty convoluted and difficult. I don't recommend it.

So, let's see:

Does the chest appear on that square in the upper-right when the block trigger is activated? I am going to assume so, since it's the only logical location, unless you left the location unmarked.

Secondly, is that where the statue starts off, or must the player find a way to push it along those narrow ledges for a little ways? I am going to assume the statue starts off one tile diagonal NE from the bush.

Once I know where Link can go, and where the player can potentially push the statue, I can recommend where to put the flags and triggers.

[Christian]

You're right, the player pushes the statue all the way up , then he goes around and then pushes the statue to the right where the block trigger switch is. The statue starts one tile diagonally from the bush on the bottom left.

[Radien]

Oh, that's not too hard. That means that the block can't be pushed beyond the bush... well, as long as the player doesn't have the Roc's Feather. Be careful, though... if you make it possible for the player to have the Roc's Feather, it might be possible for them to trap themselves in the room if they are really stupid. I think the pit would serve as an "emergency exit," though, regardless of whether it's a warp or a bottomless pit combo.

Now, back to your conundrum:

Find a spot where the statue CANNOT be pushed, which is also a spot Link is forced to walk over after activating the block trigger. Place a misc. secret flag there (flag #16-31) and cause a sensitive permanent trigger to appear at that spot (you can cover it up with a cave floor combo on layer 1 or 2 so it doesn't show).

As long as that spot cannot be avoided AND the statue can't be pushed onto it... that's really all you need to do. Link will be forced to walk over it sometime after the treasure chest appears. You don't even need to make the trigger disappear after Link steps on it, because stepping on it doesn't change the appearance of the screen. All it does is turn the temporary secret (which will have already been triggered by that point) into a permanent one.

I've used this exact same method before, albeit in version 1.92. But it sounds like nothing has changed that would affect the method, so give it a try.


P.S. - If Link DOES have the Roc's Feather, you are going to have to be a little creative to make make this screen work. It might be necessary to turn on the screen flag "combos affect midair Link" (or whatever it's called). After you've gotten this method working, test with the Roc's Feather and see if it's possible to "break" it.

[Christian]

This is all too complicated I really don't want to loose motivation working on my quest right now so i decided to re-do the entire puzzle so it won't use a Block->Trigger flag. Hopefully the devs at one point create a Block->trigger (permanent) flag sometime soon. Thank you so much Radien, you've been really helpful and i will definitely use those tricks on a dungeon

[Radien]

This is all too complicated I really don't want to loose motivation working on my quest right now so i decided to re-do the entire puzzle so it won't use a Block->Trigger flag. Hopefully the devs at one point create a Block->trigger (permanent) flag sometime soon. Thank you so much Radien, you've been really helpful and i will definitely use those tricks on a dungeon

Awww. I don't feel like it's worth avoiding the Block Trigger flag for this. If you want to keep things really simple, you may have to accept a few quirks in the way ZC handles things, but if you want to learn a few tricks to get around those quirks, I'm happy to help. One thing I could do would be to get a copy of your quest and edit that particular screen, then you could open it up and see what I did, and imitate it elsewhere.

But it's up to you to decide how in-depth you want to be. Doing complex things in ZQuest often involves plenty of "cheats" and workarounds, since you're using an editor to create the quest rather than text command lines. Sometimes that's fun, other times it's tedious. It's okay to hold either opinion. The point is to have fun making it, after all, right?


P.S. -
I just thought of another method that's (hopefully) simpler than the one I recommended above. It's a little hard to put into words, though. That's the big problem here, really. It'd be easy to demonstrate in a video, but I don't have the time for that. Again, my offer stands to take a look at your QST file if you would like the help.

[Rastael]

Heyho.
I have the same problem:
I want a bomb-trigger on a screen of a NES-dungeon-map to become permanent.
I tried this, but it doesn't work on RC1...

1. Secret is triggered (through a temporary method)
2. Temporary trigger causes a perm. trigger combo to appear
3. Player steps on perm. trigger combo

Is there another way?