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Common ZC Wisdom Sharing


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#1 Deedee

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Posted 25 October 2024 - 03:52 AM

What sort of wisdom/advice would you like to impart to your fellow questmakers? Any dos or donts? Could be game design related, could be technical advice.


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#2 Alucard648

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Posted 25 October 2024 - 04:05 AM

If you make the quest use enhanced music, make sure there are fallback MIDIs inserted, in case of download links breaking. 


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#3 Mani Kanina

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Posted 25 October 2024 - 10:27 AM

Shift Click, Ctrl Click, and Alt Click in the screen editor are your MVPs, and can be combined. Being able to copy combos on the screen as well as interact with the CSet/Palette of a placed combo rather than the combo itself is very useful and these hotkeys can be easy to miss for a long time.

As for design, and this is true for any art medium you pick up, don't start with your big idea, your magnum opus, the thing you really want to make. Rather your first project should be a rather small and short one so you can get get a feel for how things work and learn valuable lessons.


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#4 Hergiswi

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Posted 25 October 2024 - 12:53 PM

as an observer, i'd say the big thing is don't hype people up for a project and give some big announcement about it unless you actually plan to work on it (and hopefully finish it). i lose faith in most projects unless there's consistently some updates or information from the creator because so many projects over the years have been canceled or just ceased to be updated ever.


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#5 Russ

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Posted 25 October 2024 - 01:55 PM

Oh man, I got lots of things I can think of and probably will be making multiple posts in this thread. But let's start with some talking about music. First off, cave music. There's several mistakes I see people make with cave music. To start, please don't use the Minish Cap cave theme. Please. Aside from being ridiculously overused, it's a 13 second loop. If I'm in a cave for more than 30 seconds, I'm gonna start screaming internally. Second... consider not using cave music at all. Hear me out here. I'll often see large areas crisscrossed with waves. The overworld area typically has some grand, long adventurous theme, and the cave may have one as well (or may have a 13 second Minish Cap loop...). I get to hear neither cuz I'm constantly entering and exiting caves, restarting the music. Just set the cave to use the same theme as the overworld. They're being treated as the same area anyways. You don't really need a dedicated cave theme unless the cave is a distinct area or is long enough to justify having its own song. Houses are kind of a similar, though less egregious, example. I've gotten really tired of hearing the first 5 seconds of the OoT house theme. Just have the village music continue into the houses. It's less jarring.

 

I'm also gonna bounce off what Mani and Hergiswi said about projects. I'm not gonna say don't do a large quest. There have been several wonderful, big quests that are a blast to play. But I'm going to say set realistic expectations. Big quests are going to take a long time to make. Ask yourself if you're really committed to seeing it through before you start. Sometimes, making something small but doable is more fulfilling than spending years of your life on The Next Big Thing.

 

This one should go without saying, but please test your quest. And I mean fully. Open a new file in ZC and play it start to end. I've seen a bunch of recent issues with incorrect starting dmaps and whatnot from people using Test Mode exclusively and never actually playing the quest to make sure it's fully functional.

 

Lastly, NPCs. There's a whole lot of ways to write NPC dialogue. Obviously, no NPC will exactly sound "realistic" because people don't just unload random information on you when you walk near them, but there's a spectrum from more realistic characters to video gamey hint givers. Both are acceptable. But whichever you go with, don't waste the player's time. If an NPC's talking about their life, I want it to either be something interesting that makes them into a character or some worldbuilding that gives me a sense of the world I'm in. I don't want to walk into a house, navigate around furniture, and then be met with "Hi I'm Bob." Cool Bob, you just wasted 30 seconds of my life.


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#6 TheRock

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Posted 25 October 2024 - 02:46 PM

Keep your first game simple. It doesn't need 20+ hours of gameplay, all custom graphics, custom bosses, and the most mind blowing gameplay.
 
Make a game you want to make. If you want to make it it will be more fun to make and it will be easier to get the stuff done. 
 
Don't make a Zelda 1 remake. Instead make your own game.
 
Make something that you know you can finish. First game you should be able to make in like 3 months. So for scale something like 4 dungeons and a 8x8 overworld. With the first game done you will have more experience on scale and how long things take. 
 
For making bigger games see the small game as a stepping stone to be able to make the bigger game. 
 
Don't post about your game until you know you will finish it. I find that after the first 2 dungeons are finished this is a good sign that the game will be finished. 

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#7 xanadude

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Posted 25 October 2024 - 03:36 PM

Don't make a Zelda 1 remake. Instead make your own game.

 

uh oh

 

Jokes aside, my advice is about maintaining your mental. It's okay to take breaks, it's okay to feel stuck, it's okay to take things one screen at a time. It's like a marathon in the sense it's not about sprinting and winning the race, but about pacing yourself to the finish. I've spent many hours still to this day just changing details on the ground on screens that have been done for years; don't let yourself be caught up in those things.


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#8 Colin

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Posted 25 October 2024 - 08:28 PM

  • The bigger, the better. If your quest doesn't involve like, 100 OWs of gameplay screens then you're doing it wrong
  • Only use music from Zelda, Golden Sun, and Final Fantasy
  • Water dungeons need to feature innovative mechanics like raising and lowering water
  • You can simulate cutscenes by making Link invisible and putting him in the corner. Use a side warp off the bottom of the screen to advance the cutscene
  • Make sure the corners of all your screens feature something solid
  • Enemies like Magic Octorocks and Death Knight Darknuts are excellent for mid to late game dungeons
  • For a really challenging boss, stack 8 Fire Gleeoks on top of each other for a 32-headed Fire Gleeok. Then throw in a couple batrobes to make sure it isn't too easy
  • Having Link say things like "Rad" and "Fuck" can add some much needed edge to your quest
  • For a weird dream-like area, teleport the player into some screens that would ordinarily just be layers for another screen. The tile errors can make for a really unnerving situation
  • Make sure you add lots of blood spatters in a variety of situations. Blood spatters are super easy to draw, just chuck some red pixels randomly on a few tiles and throw them everywhere
  • You can make "custom bosses" by using a mix of timed warps, side warps, and instant warps to teleport between nearly identical screens and sliding around the boss sprite
  • Cancel your quest after the first dungeon, or maybe overworld
  • Take your time giving Link the sword. Make sure the player's like, 1 or 2 hours into the game before they get the sword.
  • Most importantly, have fun :)

Edited by Colin, 25 October 2024 - 08:30 PM.

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#9 Shoshon the Elegant

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Posted 25 October 2024 - 08:41 PM

  • The bigger, the better. If your quest doesn't involve like, 100 OWs of gameplay screens then you're doing it wrong
  • Only use music from Zelda, Golden Sun, and Final Fantasy
  • Water dungeons need to feature innovative mechanics like raising and lowering water
  • You can simulate cutscenes by making Link invisible and putting him in the corner. Use a side warp off the bottom of the screen to advance the cutscene
  • Make sure the corners of all your screens feature something solid
  • Enemies like Magic Octorocks and Death Knight Darknuts are excellent for mid to late game dungeons
  • For a really challenging boss, stack 8 Fire Gleeoks on top of each other for a 32-headed Fire Gleeok. Then throw in a couple batrobes to make sure it isn't too easy
  • Having Link say things like "Rad" and "Fuck" can add some much needed edge to your quest
  • For a weird dream-like area, teleport the player into some screens that would ordinarily just be layers for another screen. The tile errors can make for a really unnerving situation
  • Make sure you add lots of blood spatters in a variety of situations. Blood spatters are super easy to draw, just chuck some red pixels randomly on a few tiles and throw them everywhere
  • You can make "custom bosses" by using a mix of timed warps, side warps, and instant warps to teleport between nearly identical screens and sliding around the boss sprite
  • Cancel your quest after the first dungeon, or maybe overworld
  • Take your time giving Link the sword. Make sure the player's like, 1 or 2 hours into the game before they get the sword.
  • Most importantly, have fun :)
Love how this is half joking and half serious.

I mean, it’s definitely great design to give the player a sword hours later.
While having fun is absolutely the last thing you should care about.

#10 Anthus

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Posted 25 October 2024 - 11:21 PM

Make sure you are on the right layer when you start placing combos.


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#11 Moosh

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Posted 26 October 2024 - 01:00 AM

Don't feel limited by convention. ZC can be used to make all sorts of games beyond just Zelda and beyond even the usual adventure game tropes. If there's aspects of the design process that regularly trip you up, you can always just ditch them completely. Making a game you'd want to play is about more than just imitating games you like but also analyzing those games and figuring out why they inspire you. You can improve on your own inspirations to make something even better suited to your taste.

 

Following the previous point I think it's important to focus on novelty when you're starting out with the program and worry about polish later. If you have a cool idea that you think is beyond your ability, shoot for it anyways and make something totally scuffed but still cool and unique. It's all part of the learning process and will show other people that your ideas have potential.

 

Palettes are super important. I feel like 60% of my map design has been fated for success or failure the second I finish up the palette. At the bare minimum you should be maximizing your use of your tileset's default palettes, but I also think it's good to make some custom ones of your own. If this is something you struggle with, it's always fine to ask around for help. Also you should try to avoid using palette 0 (the default when making a new screen, it typically has very generic or unusable color choices) and never under any circumstances should you make a screen out of sprite CSets. This is a common trap for new users because it's incredibly easy to do but it will drastically limit your quest's color usage potential.

 

Try to make use of automation and shortcuts when possible, such as autocombos, aliases, pools, favorite combos, favorite commands, and alt click for quickly selecting combos off the current screen. Some of this is me just shilling my own features but any of these things can potentially shave hours off your development time.

 

Ask for help if you get stuck... This one's pretty straightforward.


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#12 Rambly

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Posted 26 October 2024 - 01:48 AM

as an observer, i'd say the big thing is don't hype people up for a project and give some big announcement about it unless you actually plan to work on it (and hopefully finish it). i lose faith in most projects unless there's consistently some updates or information from the creator because so many projects over the years have been canceled or just ceased to be updated ever.

I'd add to this and say it's okay to hold off on announcing a quest at all until you have a demo ready. Don't feel pressured into revealing a project before it's ready to be revealed.


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#13 Orithan

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Posted 26 October 2024 - 02:38 AM

Oh man, I got lots of things I can think of and probably will be making multiple posts in this thread. But let's start with some talking about music. First off, cave music. There's several mistakes I see people make with cave music. To start, please don't use the Minish Cap cave theme. Please. Aside from being ridiculously overused, it's a 13 second loop. If I'm in a cave for more than 30 seconds, I'm gonna start screaming internally. Second... consider not using cave music at all. Hear me out here. I'll often see large areas crisscrossed with waves. The overworld area typically has some grand, long adventurous theme, and the cave may have one as well (or may have a 13 second Minish Cap loop...). I get to hear neither cuz I'm constantly entering and exiting caves, restarting the music. Just set the cave to use the same theme as the overworld. They're being treated as the same area anyways. You don't really need a dedicated cave theme unless the cave is a distinct area or is long enough to justify having its own song. Houses are kind of a similar, though less egregious, example. I've gotten really tired of hearing the first 5 seconds of the OoT house theme. Just have the village music continue into the houses. It's less jarring.

So what you're saying, remix the Minish Cap cave theme into the overworld theme in every cave and use advanced scripting to sync it all up? :P


Edited by Orithan, 26 October 2024 - 02:38 AM.

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#14 Tabletpillow

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Posted 26 October 2024 - 10:04 PM

If you choose to start a big project, don't start a career on the side for fun.


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#15 Shoshon the Elegant

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Posted 27 October 2024 - 07:28 AM

The ladder may technically be in ZC, but don't use it... unless you are prepared to design your entire quest around the idea that the player has the ladder.

 

 

If you choose to start a big project, don't start a career on the side for fun.

 

*laments in Hylian*


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