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#31 Nicholas Steel

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Posted 21 May 2016 - 03:57 AM

If you could purchase games and download them to generic cartridges, why not just make those cartridges USB sticks or SD cards and let you download the games at home?

When I say generic, I mean generic as in the cartridge isn't game specific. I don't mean the cartridges won't have proprietary DRM or some such.



#32 Dawnlight

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 11:04 AM

I personally don't see anything wrong with the NX being cartridge based. Flash memory is becoming much cheaper to produce these days compared to so many years ago. At least you don't have to deal with god awful game installs that the PS4 and Xbox ONE suffer from.


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#33 Anarchy_Balsac

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 12:14 PM

I personally don't see anything wrong with the NX being cartridge based. Flash memory is becoming much cheaper to produce these days compared to so many years ago. At least you don't have to deal with god awful game installs that the PS4 and Xbox ONE suffer from.

 

EXACTLY, the transition to discs happened at a time that predates current technologies, most notably Flash Memory.  So they no longer have the memory advantage, and the cost advantage is minimal.  Given how easy it is to damage discs, and the fact that they are less reliable in general (especially in the long term), there's really no reason to continue using them, other than status quo.


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#34 Koh

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 01:22 PM

EXACTLY, the transition to discs happened at a time that predates current technologies, most notably Flash Memory.  So they no longer have the memory advantage, and the cost advantage is minimal.  Given how easy it is to damage discs, and the fact that they are less reliable in general (especially in the long term), there's really no reason to continue using them, other than status quo.

Audio Quality.  CD based audio lets them store high quality 320KBPS versions of the OST for the game that can be played that way, whereas cartbased games are MIDI based and have less audio quality.  More room for full voice acting and stuff, instead of having to use mostly text based dialogue, and etc.


Edited by Koh, 20 June 2016 - 01:25 PM.


#35 The Satellite

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 01:29 PM

And new flash-based cartridges are easily capable of storing high-quality audio as well. Ever notice most people don't even use CDs to listen to music anymore?


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#36 Cukeman

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 01:29 PM

I have a really hard time believing you can't store certain types of audio files on flash memory...


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#37 Anarchy_Balsac

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 01:30 PM

Audio Quality.  CD based audio lets them store high quality 320KBPS versions of the OST for the game that can be played that way, whereas cartbased games are MIDI based and have less audio quality.  More room for full voice acting and stuff, instead of having to use mostly text based dialogue, and etc.

 

That USED to be the case, but that was a memory limitation issue.  Nothing DIRECTLY to do with audio per se.



#38 Koh

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 01:35 PM

It's not that you can't store them, but having all of that takes up a lot of memory, both disc wise and RAM wise, and the game cartridges out now just don't have enough memory to have a full game and all of that, which is why they compromise like that still, even for 3DS games.  It's true we have more memory coming out of our ears this decade, but that's mostly in terms of RAM and harddrives for the hardware.  Game carts are proprietary, so they are much more specifically built and have more limits.  Whereas harddrives and RAM sticks are a bit more universal, which is why they can go up to 2 TB and 32 GB respectively for PCs


Edited by Koh, 20 June 2016 - 01:37 PM.


#39 Nicholas Steel

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 01:36 PM

Yep some N64 games used MP3's sparingly, (sparingly, due to capacity constraints) like Conker's Bad Fur Day for example. NAND memory isn't the most durable in terms of longevity, I think they last around 10 years before the memory chips go sour? CD's and DVD's last longer if their high quality like Tayio Juden brand discs and are properly handled so they don't develop scratches. Magnetic Tape is I believe still the best in terms of longevity and reliability.

 

Even a bunch of NES and Famicon games used ordinary PCM audio files, like Ninja Gaiden 3 for the voice samples.


Edited by Nicholas Steel, 21 June 2016 - 03:51 AM.

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#40 Anarchy_Balsac

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 03:29 PM

It's not that you can't store them, but having all of that takes up a lot of memory, both disc wise and RAM wise, and the game cartridges out now just don't have enough memory to have a full game and all of that, which is why they compromise like that still, even for 3DS games.  It's true we have more memory coming out of our ears this decade, but that's mostly in terms of RAM and harddrives for the hardware.  Game carts are proprietary, so they are much more specifically built and have more limits.  Whereas harddrives and RAM sticks are a bit more universal, which is why they can go up to 2 TB and 32 GB respectively for PCs

 

Said cartridges are tiny, and for handhelds.  If you made a modern cartridge the size of an NES, SNES, or even Genesis/N64 Cartridge, it'd be a-whole-nother story.

 

 

 

Yep some N64 games used MP3's sparingly, (sparingly, due to capacity constraints) like Conker's Bad Fur Day for example. Flash memory isn't the most durable in terms of longevity, I think they last around 10 years before the memory chips go sour? CD's and DVD's last longer if their high quality like Tayio Juden brand discs and are properly handled so they don't develop scratches. Magnetic Tape is I believe still the best in terms of longevity and reliability.

 

Longevity means nothing if it's easily damaged with little to no restore potential.  Wii U games fit that description to a T, as I found out the hard way when my Wii U scratched up my discs. They CAN last a while, assuming NOTHING goes wrong, ever, but with frequent use, that is unlikely.

 

And even without Flash Memory, modern technology would STILL allow MUCH greater speed and memory storage than it used to, discs always had speed problems, even back in the day.  


Edited by Anarchy_Balsac, 20 June 2016 - 03:38 PM.

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#41 Dawnlight

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 04:28 PM

I wonder how fast the read speed would be on a cartridge when it's up against a HDD running through SATA? Though at this day and age, anything can beat optical disc speed so it must be better than a disc. lol


Edited by Dawnlight, 20 June 2016 - 04:29 PM.


#42 Koh

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 05:49 PM

Said cartridges are tiny, and for handhelds.  If you made a modern cartridge the size of an NES, SNES, or even Genesis/N64 Cartridge, it'd be a-whole-nother story.

The size of the plastic has nothing to do with it; it's all about how much memory they shoved into it.  The NES was supersized for no reason, and actually a downgrade of the original Famicom.



#43 Anarchy_Balsac

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 06:14 PM

The size of the plastic has nothing to do with it; it's all about how much memory they shoved into it.  The NES was supersized for no reason, and actually a downgrade of the original Famicom.

 

This is either a HUGE misunderstanding, or something much worse.

 

The size of the plastic itself means nothing but the size of the PCB and and IC chips within the plastic do, in fact have an impact.

This is exactly why desktop PC's are still sold, instead of just laptops, and why laptops have not been replaced by portable phones.  Sure, we've gotten good at microsizing our technology, but you can still only fit so much processing power, and memory within a given space.



#44 Koh

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 06:29 PM

Which is precisely my point.  Even if they went with bigger size plastic for home consoles, the cart memory still wouldn't be anything spectacular, because proprietary carts are still behind even flash drives now (we've got 1 TB flash drives for PCs).  It's like how consoles themselves are always behind PCs in raw power; sure they evolve, but as they evolve so do PCs.  Proprietary carts have some catching up to do with their microsizing.


Edited by Koh, 20 June 2016 - 06:30 PM.


#45 Nicholas Steel

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 04:06 AM

Which is precisely my point.  Even if they went with bigger size plastic for home consoles, the cart memory still wouldn't be anything spectacular, because proprietary carts are still behind even flash drives now (we've got 1 TB flash drives for PCs).  It's like how consoles themselves are always behind PCs in raw power; sure they evolve, but as they evolve so do PCs.  Proprietary carts have some catching up to do with their microsizing.

The only reason propriety flash drives are "behind" in technology is because the company that makes them (Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo) want you to buy multiple of them and they want to make a retarded level of profit per unit sold. Their propriety in design with a propriety lock-out design so that you can't use a competitor or standardized product in-place of their product. That is literally the only reason for the small capacities, slow performance and exorbitant prices.

 

You can buy 128GB USB 3 thumb drives for the prices those companies charge for 32GB USB 2 storage drives. If you're talking about 2.5" storage drives its the same thing, they intentionally use old technology with low capacities because their stupidly cheap to mass produce and thus easiest to make the biggest profit with and they charge you prices that are the equivalent of what you pay for triple (or more) the capacity with the latest technology because it's a propriety design their using, they can charge whatever the heck they want, they've removed the competition.

 

And yes, the plastic shell housing the PCB has very little to do with the capacity of the device. They can make it huge but it won't affect the capacity at all. NES cartridge PCB's are roughly half the height of the actual NES cartridge shell (I dunno why, likely aesthetic reasons/distance themselves from the Sega/competitor cartridge design aesthetic?).


Edited by Nicholas Steel, 21 June 2016 - 04:45 AM.



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