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Koh -Vs- Ocarina of Time


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#46 Nicholas Steel

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 10:30 PM

But they had no pursuit, which is my point.  Why not give a little side story to them where you could sort of ease their pain or learn more about why they are they way they are?  But of course not, it's just a one time deal to set the mood of that one scene.

They did precisely that in Majora's Mask, virtually every single NPC in that game involves a side quest where you "ease their pain/help them".Seriously, Ocarina Of Time was merely the stepping stone towards Majora's Mask. Once they had the basics down and fresh funding they perfected it all in Majora's Mask!



#47 Koh

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 10:56 PM

They did precisely that in Majora's Mask, virtually every single NPC in that game involves a side quest where you "ease their pain/help them".Seriously, Ocarina Of Time was merely the stepping stone towards Majora's Mask. Once they had the basics down and fresh funding they perfected it all in Majora's Mask!

I know about Majora's Mask lol, this is about its prequel.  To be honest though, I didn't get further than collecting the Moon Tear and climbing the tower myself on that game, because it was late in my emulation phase, and I discovered a keyboard alone would not be the best approach.  Yes, this is to say I was playing Ocarina of Time WITH MY KEYBOARD, and still didn't die a single time or use a fairy in a bottle I had backed up for, hence why I found it to be way too easy.



#48 Shane

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 02:17 AM

But it was done to bits back in the day, and is now considered bad game design.  It was only "acceptable" then because that's all they knew, but that doesn't make a game "good for it's time."  It's still bad game design.

But then whatever happen to those retro fans? Whatever happen to the people who think the classics still roar on today? Koh, you realize that this is a opinion-based topic and not an essay with facts, right?



#49 Koh

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 07:10 AM

But then whatever happen to those retro fans? Whatever happen to the people who think the classics still roar on today? Koh, you realize that this is a opinion-based topic and not an essay with facts, right?

Once again, I said it's bad game design as a WHOLE, not per INDIVIDUAL.  Try releasing a game like that today.  A longish difficult game with one life, no continues, no saving, no passwords, and a health bar that gets drained ridiculously fast (like Double Dragon 3 NES, for example).  The number of players who actually buy it would be totally negligible.  It isn't about every single little person's taste, but the whole market, and the market shows stuff like that isn't acceptable anymore.  When the market as a whole finds distaste in something, it is considered bad game design.  It's no different than laws.  Not every single little person on the world is going to agree with every law made, however, laws are made due to majority vote mixed in with common sense half the time.  The same applies to game design.  Not everyone is going to agree on what makes good and bad game design, but the market will clearly show what the majority of people like and don't like, hence why they're coined as bad game design or good game design.  The idea of making it through a long, difficult game without dying once and needing to save or stop at some point is ludicrous, and the market will show and complain about it, hence why it's bad game design.


Edited by Koh, 21 May 2013 - 07:23 AM.


#50 Shane

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 07:30 AM

"Nothing is good or bad but thinking makes it so."

 

I think that quote just sums up this whole argument about what you think is factually bad game design. I never said to make a game inspired or one that copies the classic since gaming has advanced but that doesn't and shouldn't mean the games past that point become bad or poor. I also never saw retro games as whole that cheap you claim them to be. Retro games are good, sure, gaming has advanced and you compare Link's Awakening to Twilight Princess, of course Twilight Princess is going to be better because gaming advanced -- it evolved. But at heart, I prefer Link's Awakening and many still do. Just because Twilight Princess is there does not mean Link's Awakening now becomes a bad game.


Edited by Shane, 21 May 2013 - 07:40 AM.


#51 Koh

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 07:33 AM

"Nothing is good or bad but thinking makes it so."

 

I think that quote just sums up this whole argument about what you think is factually bad game design.

More like "Individually we are none, but collectively we are one."  Make it more poetic :D.


Edited by Koh, 21 May 2013 - 07:34 AM.


#52 Shane

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 07:42 AM

...William Shakespeare just rolled in his grave.


Edited by Shane, 21 May 2013 - 07:44 AM.


#53 Koh

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 07:45 AM

...William Shakespeare just rolled in his grave.

It doesn't need to be a solid in stone written fact.  The sales and majority opinion of the games will tell the tale.  If 1000 people review a game, and 824 of them say "there should have been X in this game," then clearly, it SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN THERE.  Come on now Shane, surely you get this picture =O.



#54 Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 08:11 AM

It sounds more like you don't know how sales and majority polls works. See, the thing is, if 1000 people say they want X in a game, and bitch about it online, there might be double that amount of people who are fine with how things are, and don't feel like saying anything on the matter. They've got all they need. I don't understand how you factor sales into this idea either. See, if I buy a game, that decision does not mean I am happy with the content. And just because a lot of people buy Call of Duty, that doesn't mean Activision shouldn't think about moving their franchise forward, rather than cashing in on the status quo. I'm sure a lot of their fans agree with this as well - I mean, they too want new games in their favorite franchises to be good. But that doesn't mean they'll stop buying 'the same game every year'. Any fans have this issue, people keep buying Zelda-games even though they've more or less consistently been losing their charm. A sale does not mean that the buyer agrees with the content.

 

Looking past that, I think there's a bigger issue with the way you're thinking about this. Take the Mass Effect-ending problem. Some people were angry because they thought the ending was outright bad, and that they deserved better for their money. See, I've got a big problem with this. If you watch a movie and the plot takes you on a journey you don't fancy, for whatever reason, they okay, you don't like the movie. Maybe there's just one scene in the movie you didn't like, and the rest was great, but regardless, if you want your money back, or are prepared to ask the developer to change the ending because you didn't like it then I'm sorry, but you're an idiot. That's not how this works. You don't tell the author what to put in his book. You can critique his work and give tips on how books should be written, but you don't force him to write a story where the troll doesn't kill the girl in the end just because hey, you wanted a happy ending. That's up to the author.

 

Maybe you wanted say, a multiplayer feature in the latest game. But if including that goes against the values that the creators wanted to include in the game, then I don't think it's fair to fault them for not having it. I discussed the same thing with aaa2 a few weeks back, when he was talking about how he thought that games that didn't let players cheat was worse games, by default, compared to games that did. It's one thing to complain when a platforming game doesn't let you jump - but if the game does what it does without breaking apart, then that is not one of its low-points, and as a game critic, I would never fault a game for something like that. You can't really complain about a vision, but you can complain about a lack of one. My point is that you don't fault Call of Duty's gameplay for not having a rideable dinosaur. That would have been awesome, and it probably would have been a better game with it, but you can't rate something that isn't there. Am I making any sense?

 

The real problem behind the Mass Effect-ending however - the part of this post where I'm addressing you, Koh, is over. I just want to explain this thing because I brought it up - was that the developers promised one thing, then gave us something entirely different. When Mass Effect 1 was coming out, Bioware was saying that your choices in the game would echo throughout the trilogy, and that every player would not only get a very unique experience, but also that the ending would differ greatly from game to game. They followed through, mostly, but when it came to the ending, you were given three choices. A, B, or C. And regardless of which of these three you picked, you'd see a similar cutscene and then it'd all be over.

 

So the problem here wasn't really about the content, or the message of the ending(s), but rather with the mechanics - how it worked. Of course, causing an uproar over something like this is beyond silly, and I do not know what's wrong with the legions of fans who did that when it comes to Mass Effect. Though I think it is safe to say the ending sucked, regardless. :P

 

@Shane: A game does not change over time, though people's opinions of what makes a good game does. Thus a good game back then might be considered a less worthy title today. Though to be honest, I think most games from before the 00's were pretty bad. There's a good reason for this, and it ties into what I just said: developers have, with time, learned how to use the medium to mold better experiences. Most of this 'moving the industry forward' has started happening with the indie-scene moving closer and closer to the front row. And that's funny, because the indie-developers are actually the developers today that are most like the ones we saw in the 80's and so on, in terms of how they work. It is just that today, they've got all that extra technology, but also a much better idea of what the gaming medium is.



#55 Koh

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 08:19 AM

 

Looking past that, I think there's a bigger issue with the way you're thinking about this. Take the Mass Effect-ending problem. Some people were angry because they thought the ending was outright bad, and that they deserved better for their money. See, I've got a big problem with this. If you watch a movie and the plot takes you on a journey you don't fancy, for whatever reason, they okay, you don't like the movie. Maybe there's just one scene in the movie you didn't like, and the rest was great, but regardless, if you want your money back, or are prepared to ask the developer to change the ending because you didn't like it then I'm sorry, but you're an idiot. That's not how this works. You don't tell the author what to put in his book. You can critique his work and give tips on how books should be written, but you don't force him to write a story where the troll doesn't kill the girl in the end just because hey, you wanted a happy ending. That's up to the author.

Of course it's all the developers decision.  If they WANT to make a game like that they can.  But that doesn't mean a good number of people will buy it, or will ignore what was missing in their review.  If you decide not to take what the majority people say into account, that's fine too, but if you keep doing that, you'll gradually lose the player base.  If you're a big company like Activision, it really doesn't matter with all the money you're sitting on, but isn't one of the top rules of game design to appeal to the masses?  Some appealing you're doing when you ignore what a large chunk of people say.

 

Also, sales totally affect the choices regarding game development.  Everyone made fun of EA when they claimed that their customers liked microtransactions (even me), but the sales will show a large portion of people actually buy that stuff.  When games don't sell well, they're forgotten and not pursued again (unless the developers REALLY think they can try again).


Edited by Koh, 21 May 2013 - 08:59 AM.


#56 Sheik

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 04:28 PM

 

but isn't one of the top rules of game design to appeal to the masses?

I would like to disagree with this statement. That might be a top rule of selling, but video game design as an art form does not forcefully have to appeal to the masses. There's a lot of genres that appeal only to a certain type of player (like horror shooters for example) and that's perfectly fine. If your approach to game design is to appeal to the masses and to make as much money off a game as possible then I am afraid that your product will very likely be pretty soulless.


Edited by Sheik, 21 May 2013 - 04:28 PM.


#57 Koh

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 05:05 PM

I would like to disagree with this statement. That might be a top rule of selling, but video game design as an art form does not forcefully have to appeal to the masses. There's a lot of genres that appeal only to a certain type of player (like horror shooters for example) and that's perfectly fine. If your approach to game design is to appeal to the masses and to make as much money off a game as possible then I am afraid that your product will very likely be pretty soulless.

Choosing a theme of game isn't what you make appeal to the masses.  The actual gameplay is what you make appealing.  Just saying "I'm making a horror shooter" isn't enough in most cases, even with shooter fans.  They want to see some gameplay trailers first to see what it's actually like.


Edited by Koh, 21 May 2013 - 05:06 PM.


#58 Sheik

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 10:37 AM

This is correct, but this is not the point I was trying to make. I mentioned genre only as an example.



#59 TheLegend_njf

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 10:51 PM

What a super huge discussion.

All I can add to the argument is that this is precisely why my friend won't ever play Ocarina of Time. His words was "It's an old game, you grew up with it, I didn't, I could never like it like you do, like you can never love the classic Resident Evil games like I do"

And I must admit, I for one find nothing interesting about Resident Evil before RE4. (Never found nothing interesting after I might add as well. Lol)

OOT was an amazing game in its time, but doesn't quite stack up with today's standards. Same as ALTTP, and you know, after playing ALTTP recently, I realized it fails to live up to half the quests we have here. I never found ALTTP so sloppy until now, but my childhood biased makes me still believe it was such an amazing game.

Edited by NewJourneysFire, 23 May 2013 - 10:54 PM.


#60 Nicholas Steel

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 08:38 AM

Hey Koh, no bagging out Double Dragon III on the NES! That game is amazing fun with a friend similarly dedicated to beating it. It's only downfall is the frequently unresponsive Spin Kick and Forward Flip attack moves that required you to mash both the A and B buttons together during the 2 kinds of jumps.

 

River City Ransom improved on the same kind of gameplay in every single way imaginable of course and is also an amazing game, but it doesn't mean DD3 is bad :/


Edited by franpa, 25 May 2013 - 08:39 AM.



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