126 replies to this topic

[aaa2]

The reason nearly noone finds Zelda Classic:
Most people take less than 30seconds to try a program. Loading a quest file is so unintuitive that it takes about 1 minute to figure out. Most people give up in the time frame and assume the program doesnt work. So nobody uses it hence nobody finds it. And yes thats what we all forget about it. For people to use it you essentially need to offer it bundled with quests already (renaming the custom quest 1st.qst) so people know the program works.

Side note: This is also the reason people use word not LaTeX.

Edited by aaa2, 07 March 2013 - 06:09 PM.

[Russ]

Koh, I'm sorry, but you really can't argue that making your own engine is easier because you don't have color constraints. ZC can be used without ever even looking at a single line of programming. THAT'S what makes it so easy to use. There are trade offs, sure, the palette restrictions being among them. But even with those restrictions, it's astronomically easier for somebody with no coding experience to make a game with ZC then anything else out there.

[Jamian]

Who even cares how many people end up playing your quest? If one person ends up playing and enjoying my work, that's a huge bonus and makes me feel really proud of myself. 50 would fill me with enormous glee! Basically, make art for art's sake -- don't make it for other people.

I also think that if 50-100 people play my quests, that is excellent. If you think it's not enough then your expectations may be too high, there are after all, if my math is right, 322 quests in the database, and more coming at a regular pace. Which is great. But which also means few people will play them all.

But 50-100 people playing your game is a very good number for me, in any case.

Edited by Jamian, 07 March 2013 - 07:17 PM.

[Omega]

Koh, I'm sorry, but you really can't argue that making your own engine is easier because you don't have color constraints. ZC can be used without ever even looking at a single line of programming. THAT'S what makes it so easy to use. There are trade offs, sure, the palette restrictions being among them. But even with those restrictions, it's astronomically easier for somebody with no coding experience to make a game with ZC then anything else out there.

I've heard the actual coding in ZC is nothing easy to mess with. I think it was Gleeok or Saffith who mentioned that, might of been LTM. ZC would have to be completely redesigned to accommodate more colors. Instead of creating a new engine and turning ZC into something else, they deal with the coding and try to improve things. Not sure how valid this is here, but figured I'd post it.

[Shane]

I don't think it's actually easier in some regards though. For example, spritework. You're only limited to 16 color palettes, whereas any other game development tool out there doesn't have such a cap. Some could claim it should be for the better, because it forces people to use a limited number of colors and get the best out of what they have, but there are plenty of people who don't like being constricted like that. In addition, ZC has a bunch of other things that you either have to do a ridiculous work around for something that should be super simple, such as a player-following camera, or just can't do at all. People like freedom, and ZC doesn't have as much of that as the other tools, which is probably why it's off of the radar.

1) Press Ctrl + B and bam, your tile is on 8-bit. No longer limited to 16 colours.
2) Not everything needs screen scrolling. aLttP had screen scrolling, but OoS/A did not.
3) There is such thing as freedom in Zelda Classic, Schwa, blue_knight and other scripting geniuses proved it. You just got to work hard for it.

[NoeL]

Pretty sure a friend of mine introduced me to Zelda Classic. Before that I was playing ROM hacks of Z1 - I even had map editor tool for hacking Z1, though it shared all of that game's limitations. When I found out how unrestricted ZC was (this was pre-1.90, mind you. No flippers, hookshot, hammer, or any post-Z1 item) I was blown away and quickly started playing around. And then my friend showed me the BS tileset, and it blew my freaking mind! I'd never seen BS Zelda before, so my introduction to it was through ZC. Playing the first quest with sweet BS graphics made me very giddy - especially the dungeon graphics. So I made a few "quests" with that, each one having Link begin at (0, 0) on screen 00, then I learned how maps and warp points and everything worked. I experimented with importing graphics, and doing custom stuff, and began my one and only released quest in 1.90. A little while into it a pre-2.10 beta with layers, animated tiles and other cool features was released, so development switched to that. This introduced untold bugs, and made the quest pretty incompatible with later builds...

... well, that was off topic. I still hold a soft spot for DOS-based 1.90. It was still a Z1 clone at its heart, with just enough functionality to make enhanced Z1-style quests. 2.5 is far more feature rich, but also so inelegant and confusing. I can't imagine being a n00b and trying to learn 2.5 without knowledge of 1.90. So many quest rules, so many pages of enemy sprites, so many combo types, so many screen flags... I miss the blue and yellow menus running fullscreen on m 4:3 CRT monitor.

[Anthus]

2) Not everything needs screen scrolling. aLttP had screen scrolling, but OoS/A did not.

The dungeons all scrolled. Those rooms are the same size as a Zelda 1 dungeon, but the smaller in-game screen follows the player.

I think ZC is slightly more popular now, personally. PureZC has way more members, and there are just as many new quests coming out. I also think the Google search trends decrease cause more people know about these sites/ bookmark them.

Edited by Anthus, 07 March 2013 - 09:50 PM.

[Shane]

Oh whoops, I was thinking of Link's Awakening.

[Yapollo]

Well, I found ZC 4-5 years ago via RPG maker oddly enough. I was searching for Zelda sprites for RPG Maker 2000/2003 when I found a sprite pack by someone....it was a long time ago. it was just a Google image result at that, but it said Zelda Classic. I pursued AGN and lurked in ZC 1.90 for many years, coming on PureZC once to get tilesets. I stayed on the AGN forums for a little while, but I also registered here. At some point, I moved over here for keeps, as I love the community here

"Nice story, whatever"

Why do I bring all this up?

Well, there is a surprising number of people still looking for free engine software. I lament that Game maker and RPG maker have become so powerful as many of my game development friends have shied away from interest in programs such as these. Still, many of my friends are intrigued by the idea of ZC, when I tell them. Many are nostalgic for the old Zelda game, and the engine and countless games are an added bonus

I feel that there will always be an audience here as long as no other online program can match ZC's capability. I cannot speak with nearly as much conviction or experience as the experienced devs, but I feel that further developing ZC is the way to from here (though after 2.5, the devs should take a year long break).

Keeping the product alive will give time for curious budding designers to look out software as my friends and I did, and they may too find this engine and the welcoming community behind it.

Finally, a sense of perspective. Yes, i am gone a lot from this forum. There always seems to be many new members when I return. Mind you, I have not forgotten anyone from the past, though a few name changes may have confused me It would seem to me that the community is doing well, and a healthy community will continue to support the product better than fancy new features will. I would have forgotten this software long ago if there was still not a strong community behind it.

And I rambled on again...darn it

I'll do a normal sized post someday............................

[Omega]

I think it's still progressing and hasn't reached it's peak yet. Time will tell how many new people flood. If we have more tutorials and easy access (promoting), who knows where it could lead. Need more great quests though, so we can start drawing attention to it out on other sites and places. It's interesting how quest makers can effect and influence the popularity, if it's done correctly. I know of other forums where not many people have even heard of this program, and they are interested when they are shown a little work. Time will tell!

Edited by Franky, 07 March 2013 - 10:26 PM.

[Koh]

Koh, I'm sorry, but you really can't argue that making your own engine is easier because you don't have color constraints. ZC can be used without ever even looking at a single line of programming. THAT'S what makes it so easy to use. There are trade offs, sure, the palette restrictions being among them. But even with those restrictions, it's astronomically easier for somebody with no coding experience to make a game with ZC then anything else out there.

Except RPG Maker, because you don't need any coding with that either, AND there's no palette limitations =x. Game Maker's Drag and Drop system (which I don't use) doesn't require code...

1) Press Ctrl + B and bam, your tile is on 8-bit. No longer limited to 16 colours.
2) Not everything needs screen scrolling. aLttP had screen scrolling, but OoS/A did not.
3) There is such thing as freedom in Zelda Classic, Schwa, blue_knight and other scripting geniuses proved it. You just got to work hard for it.

First of all, 256 color mode on a tile is still limited to whatever the palettes have, and if they don't learn how to set those up correctly (which they don't HAVE to learn in other programs), then it won't do them much good. Secondly, OoA and OoS DID use screen scrolling; play through the dungeons again. Next, not everyone wants to make something that is done on a per screen basis.

As for 3, that's where many people draw the line. They couldn't be bothered to mess with the scripting if they don't have to, and even then there were some strange workarounds people had to do for simple things, hence it's NOT easier than other things out there.

Edited by Koh, 07 March 2013 - 10:33 PM.

[Jared]

But you need to pay like $30 for RPG Maker, which is a drag. So for a free program, ZC is a LOT, and has a lot of potential. *Points to Lost Isle, Hero of Dreams etc*

Edited by Jared, 07 March 2013 - 10:32 PM.

[Koh]

But you need to pay like $30 for RPG Maker, which is a drag. So for a free program, ZC is a LOT, and has a lot of potential. *Points to Lost Isle, Hero of Dreams etc*

No you don't. RPG Maker 2003 is still free. I believe XP is free now as well. Game Maker is also free, but if you want to get extremely fancy with it, that's when you cough up the dough. Unity and Blender are free.

Edited by Koh, 07 March 2013 - 10:37 PM.

[Yapollo]

But you need to pay like $30 for RPG Maker, which is a drag. So for a free program, ZC is a LOT, and has a lot of potential. *Points to Lost Isle, Hero of Dreams etc*

Quite so, I agree with Jared here. One of things that won me over from RPG maker, was a free software that offered so much with so little (bear in mind this was 1.90). When I saw 2.5 and scripting I was legitimately astounded.

My game dev friends have often commented on the utility and functionality of the later ZC engines.

Unfortunately, RPG is more resilient of a program and well known. And, not to say there is not a global ZC community, which there is ( and it is quite respectable), but RPG maker has a strong presence in Asia, where it was conceived.

And, as clever as ZScript and the tile/combo system is. it cannot compete with RPG maker's scripting and sprite/tile usage.

Now which do I find more fun to use, ZC by far, but unfortunately it did take awhile to learn (in order to maximize my menial talents and enjoyment of the product). In RPG maker, place some tiles, spawn some enemies and you have a first level. The paid RPG makers keep improving too :\

Mind you RPG maker is far from that simple to use, but to the amateur developer the pretty logos and screen caps may be more tempting, and, as several have pointed out, it is now on the well known pinnacle that is Steam. Of course, I feel that guys have produced some amazing maps and screenshots over the years (Screenshot of the week is still amazing)

[Avaro]

Yeah, we all have to register at many different gaming forums, make new friends and then drag them here to purezc and zelda classic, showing how to start a quest and then give download links, etc.