64 replies to this topic

[Koh]

It's time I finally put my thoughts on this game into words.

 

To begin with, I'll start by saying the game is by no means BAD, but it's definitely not the best, legendary game ever the fans make it out to be.  Now I'm prepared to back that statement up.

 

Problem #1: Hyrule Field - This is my major problem with the game.  There's absolutely NOTHING out there.  It's so barren and empty, and enemies only come out at night (save for Peahats, but even then, they're no threat).  You've got the random bombable places on the field, and the Lon Lon Ranch smack dab in the middle, but everywhere else is just a bunch of unappealing, boring walking.  This could have been their chance to make the world really stand out and add a bunch of scenery and sights to actually make exploring more worthwhile, but of course not.

 

Problem #2:  Menu Navigation - This mostly comes with the need to constantly switch between specific pieces of body equipment, like boots or tunics.  It happens so often, it's extremely annoying, especially in the Water Temple where you need to constantly switch your boots.  The GBC Zeldas only had two item slots, but even then you weren't doing nearly as much item switching as you were in this game.

 

 

Problem #3:  Bland Characters - The only characters really given much attention were the characters revolving around the plot (I'm tossing Malon into this group).  All the other side characters were just THERE.  Having NPCs to make places feel populated is one thing, but at least make it worthwhile to actually interact with them.  It's sort of like Castlevania 2:  Simon's Quest where the NPCs had nothing useful or interesting to say.

 

Problem #4:  Underused/Outclassed Items - I'm not expecting to be using all the items all the time, but some items were really only good for one specific part of the game, and either became useless or unusable later in the game.  The boomerang for example.  Adult Link can't use it, and it was really only spammed in Jabu Jabu's Belly.  So once you got to the 2nd half of the game, it became useless (and you couldn't use it anyway).  The bow was the replacement for it for Adult Link, but it didn't have the same effect.  How can you NOT use a boomerang when you're older?  It's not an age specific thing.

 

 

Problem #5:  Difficulty - Now, this game is by no means hard at all.  I don't want the game to be so hard that it makes you not want to play it, but the difficulty was always down low and easy.  I've done the usual fairy-in-a-bottle-backups, but never actually came close to even using them, even when I was just tanking my way through some areas.  The difficulty really needed ot be stepped up.  A damage increase isn't enough (Master Quest), everything needed to have buffed AIs as well, to actually make them threats.  The difficulty in a game shouldn't spike or stay low, it should be a steady increase, forcing the player to adapt to new challenges ahead.

 

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I'll conclude this by saying again, these are my own personal problems with the game.  It's still a decent and enjoyable game, but I definitely don't feel it's worth the legendary pedestal people place it on.  

[LinktheMaster]

The main thing I want to counter is argument number 1.

 

The thing was that Hyrule Field was basically unprecedented.  It was a massive feat of technology when the game originally came out.  Heck, when Miyamoto said that he wanted a big field like that, he was flat out told that it wasn't possible on the N64.  Miyamoto wanted players to get this feeling when they stepped out into Hyrule Field that they were entering a massive world with tons of places to explore.  This was hugely successful.  Remember the first time when you were a kid and stepped out into Hyrule Field.  It was an amazing experience.

 

Problem was... the N64 wasn't an overly powerful system, and it didn't have a lot of memory.  So it was hard for the system to load up such a large place at once... and it was even harder to have a bunch of details on it.  This was just a sacrifice they made in trying to get that feel of a vast world that Nintendo wanted to achieve.  Basically, if the system could have handled it, Hyrule Field probably would have been a lot more populated.

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

So, I won't tackle your entire post. OoT is an old game, and while I like it I also realize that has something to do with the fact that I have fond memories of it from when I was a kid. It did a lot of really cool things though, and it did innovate in ways that did change the way a lot of games were played. I'm thinking of stuff like the targeting system.

 

But when it comes to the overworld, I have one big problem with your argument. It seems to me that you think it's boring. Hey, that's okay, maybe it is. But why is it boring? You mentioned a lack of stuff to do, now I can understand your argument, but I disagree on a fundamental level. A lot of people have this idea that games has to be fun. If a game isn't fun, it's bad, or boring, or otherwise not worth your time. I'm not of the opinion that no games should be fun, but at the same time I don't think there's anything wrong with a game not being fun every single second of your total playtime.

 

Games is a medium, just like film and books are. There are many things you can explore within these mediums, and fun is just one of them. Sometimes the experience has to be about the atmosphere, or the magnitude of a certain event... variation is good, and I think OoT's Hyrule Field did something really neat in this respect. I also think Twilight Princess succeeded in the same manner, though I also think that the field in that game might have been a little too big.

 

So no, the field isn't really a whole lot of fun. I agree, there's not a lot to do there, and it mostly serves as a big track to run around with the horse when you're bored - but depending on how you look at it as you're playing, as in the mindset that you're in, your experience may differ greatly. That's not to say everyone would agree with me. There are people who don't see games, or even books or movies this way, and think that artsy stuff is pointless. That's their opinion, but to be, shit like this can greatly improve my gaming experience.

[Koh]

Remember the first time when you were a kid and stepped out into Hyrule Field.

I didn't own an N64 in my childhood.  I played it via emulator when I got the chance to o.o.  But I understand your point.  To be frank though, I'd rather have a sectioned world full of scenery and life than a big world full of emptiness.

 

To Migo

I'm not saying it needs to be fun the whole time.  I even said it would have been a lot better if they at least made a bunch of sights to see on the field.  But there aren't, it's just one big empty map to run across from one side to the next.  You can't just stop and watch a beautiful looking waterfall or see a field of flowers with bees flying around, a big tree with a bunch of animals moving all about it or anything like that, because it's too barren.

Edited by Koh, 19 May 2013 - 10:10 AM.

[Ventus]

I'd rather have a sectioned world full of scenery and life than a big world full of emptiness.

This is exactly why I didn't like Ocarina of Time, the world was vast alright. But it was empty and boring. 

[Sheik]

Hyrule Field in OoT succeded at what it was meant to be. It wasn't meant to be full of shit or full of enemies. It was meant to be one of the places that you simply cross to reach another place. You are not meant to spend a lot of time there fighting monsters of starring at trees (does anybody seriously do that even?). You move across Hyrule Field and reach another corner of the world.* Through Hyrule Field, the world of OoT feels connected. I think it was a big step forward from a stage based approach most other N64 games I know of and/or played took.

*This does take a few minutes, indeed. But I think that actually helps the player believe that they are on an adventure of a certain scope where some time passes between each major event of the game.

Would it be nicer if Hyrule Field showed more scenery? Heck yes, of course. Would that contribute to the area's purpose which is being a hub of sorts? No, not at all. From a functionality point of view, OoT Hyrule Field is perfectly fine as is.

Edit: Number 4 - that depends mostly on your personal style of playing. It is right that the game rarely FORCES you to use an item after you've beaten the respective dungeon but I personally used the Boomerang a lot in the second half in places like the Bottom of the Well or the Spirit Temple. In fact, I tend to use it more often than the Slingshot. As for adult Link not being able to use certain items: You have to admit that it simple makes sense from a game design point of view. As for the Boomerang specifically, it could be argued that it is a 'toy' of sorts and thus better suited to a kid as opposed to an adult. You could also argue that Link simply lost a number of items while he was traveling through time. Who cares anyways?

Edited by Sheik, 19 May 2013 - 10:54 AM.

[Anthus]

I love OoT, but I agree with some of what you are saying. Hyrule field is a weird area in a lot of ways. It basically served as a hub level, but it was quite empty. I still thought it was fun to explore the first few times as a kid. Now. I typically just go through it as quickly as possible, but occasionally, I'll take the long way.

 

As far as the game being empty, I don't think it is. There are tons of characters, and even though a lot of the non plot related NPCs may seem "boring" I never felt that way. It's not like every single person will have some great thing to say. I do agree about the boomerang though (and even the sticks, and nuts). I don't see why you couldn't use it as an adult, and it did have very limited uses. The Ice arrows where another underused item, but they were optional. (And, OoT is the only 3D Zelda with an optional dungeon) At least in MM, the ice arrows could freeze water.

 

The menus were annoying, but I think the way they did them in OoT3D was great. Having the iron, and hover boots as regular items was the best idea.

[Koh]

To Sheik

A place can serve as a hub to connect areas of the world without being barren.  It may have been a memory issue as LTM said, but that still doesn't excuse the fact that trekking across the field is tedious, unappealing, and boring.  Someone on another site told me Hyrule Field isn't the point of the game, which it's not, but if you're going to be forced to revisit the same area, over and over again, it should at least be an area of interest, rather than an area where you want to tape the analog stick or key down, walk away for a bit, and come back when you've reached your destination.

Edited by Koh, 19 May 2013 - 11:18 AM.

[Russ]

I gotta agree with Koh here. Actually, I almost agree with him 100%. Stop making me agree with you Koh!

 

But Hyrule Field does have a serious problem. I understand they wanted the game to feel vast. But it came at the sacrifice of the game being fun, which is the biggest no-no in the industry. I abhor Hyrule Field. Running across it's one of the most boring things you can do in the series. It serves no purpose other than to go "Hey, look how big of a field our system can handle!" Nintendo realized their mistake, and MM had a much smaller, but much more enjoyable central field. The whole overworld, honestly, felt pretty bland, with the exception of the Gerudo Valley/Fortess/Desert/Oasis/Whatever.

[Rambly]

Problem #2:  Menu Navigation - This mostly comes with the need to constantly switch between specific pieces of body equipment, like boots or tunics.  It happens so often, it's extremely annoying, especially in the Water Temple where you need to constantly switch your boots.  The GBC Zeldas only had two item slots, but even then you weren't doing nearly as much item switching as you were in this game.

I agree! They should release an updated version of the game where this problem is rectified!

Um... regarding the characters, I think Ocarina of Time actually had the most fleshed out characters of any Zelda game up to that point (although Link's Awakening had plenty of quirky/cute characters I guess), and it wasn't really that much worse than a standard RPG of the era, so, I mean... bland characters? I mean, what do you expect most NPCs to be like? Are you expecting the juggling mustache dudes to have some gritty backstory? Isn't it enough that they got kicked out of their home city due to a megalomaniacal evil king corrupting it? Why do you hate the juggling mustache men, Koh? Why?

The point on difficulty is a good one, but, like, Ocarina of Time is still probably harder than most of the Zelda games that came afterwards. It was probably the easiest Zelda game up to that point, though. I think the combat stayed about consistently the same difficulty the entire game (i.e. not very hard), but the puzzles at the very least got a little more complex gradually...

Also, if Hyrule Field were more "populated" riding around on a horsie wouldn't be as fun! Whee! Horse!
 

I didn't own an N64 in my childhood. [...] a big world full of emptiness.

I'm sorry to hear that. ;_;

[Koh]

I'm sorry to hear that. ;_;

I see what you did there...and I can't help but lol xD.  I never owned an NES, SNES, N64, Gamecube, Sega Saturn, etc.  But I'm happy to emulate them to see what I missed, since i can't just go out to my local game store and buy one and games for it anymore.

Edited by Koh, 19 May 2013 - 01:33 PM.

[Moosh]

I see what you did there...and I can't help but lol xD.  I never owned an NES, SNES, N64, Gamecube, Sega Saturn, etc.  But I'm happy to emulate them to see what I missed, since i can't just go out to my local game store and buy one and games for it anymore.

It's just not the same as having played them when they were new, though. I'd even go so far as to say that if you don't play a game when it's current, you can never truly understand it. As much as I love them, I'll never truly understand any Zeldas pre OoT because I didn't really play vidya games before the N64 came out.

[Hoff123]

I know that places shouldn't be empty in games, because it makes them REALLY boring... but this is a field: http://thisisarequir...iles/field1.jpg

 

 

It's OK to call me a troll . It really is.

[Koh]

I know that places shouldn't be empty in games, because it makes them REALLY boring... but this is a field: http://thisisarequir...iles/field1.jpg

 

 

It's OK to call me a troll . It really is.

I'd hate to have to mow THAT grass.

[The Satellite]

I do agree that Ocarina of Time gets quite the unreasonable amount of hype, especially when there are at least five better Zelda games (and Majora's Mask isn't one of those), but I'm also quick to defend it, so I'm usually in a strange situation with that. So without further ado...

 

Problem #1: Hyrule Field

LtM and Sheik (and Hoff ) have put it far better than I could ever think to, and honestly I think I have fewer problems with the overworld than I used to. Actually, my opinion has always been that the overworld itself was perfectly fine, it was just that there wasn't much to do in the main hub. But it worked in other, subtle ways, connecting all the areas and having various interactive branches, which are also quite impressive. Suddenly I find myself no longer disliking the overworld whatsoever, though still wouldn't mind more enemy encounters.

 

Problem #2:  Menu Navigation

This wasn't much of a problem for me until it came to boots. Otherwise I found it pretty intuitive. And you're not going to be switching through tunics often anyway, so I really don't see how that's a problem.

 

Problem #3:  Bland Characters

What, do you expect all the extras in every movie to have fleshed-out backstories as well? I agree that many games did their background NPCs much better, but that doesn't mean a game should get a knock against it just because the group outside the main cast isn't fleshed-out.

 

Problem #4:  Underused/Outclassed Items

Firstly... how is a bow a replacement for the boomerang?

 

Anyway, arguably, you could say the same about ALttP. Sheik really hit this point best in that it depends on your style of play. Personally, I saw it as freedom, a variety of ways to attack foes. I liked it. We've had less and less of that in Zelda games recently, which is saddening. I think the last game that truly still had tons of freedom in killing foes was in Wind Waker. The item list has been trimmed and slimmed since then, to disappointing lows. Not wrong about the boomerang though, but I'd sooner call the hookshot its replacement than the bow.

 

Problem #5:  Difficulty

Stalfos.

 

Okay, so in general, the game's not difficult... to us. Some elements still present a challenge the first time through, and younger players will likely have their struggles with it as well; I know I did. To be fair, it's also far from the easiest Zelda. Maybe it started a bad trend, but it still was acceptable difficulty. Some things could be harder, yes, but I don't really complain about the difficulty.

 

 

 

I'm saving most of my thoughts for my chronicling of OoT, which is the next game after I finish LA. And keep in mind these are all my own opinion, obviously you're gonna disagree. Just wanted to throw that out there.