53 replies to this topic

[CastChaos]

Spoiler-free post

As the last episode of the Ballad of a Bloodline series closes in, it's time to discuss some pressing topics:
1. Style
2. Tileset
3. Graphical display
54. Size
5. Strings
6. Story
7. Items


I. Style
a.k.a how should it feel to play BBIV

I was going for a very specific style ever since BB, but I always got sidetracked. This style is somewhat like this: imagine objects that I huge compared to the screen, there are few main animations, few characters close to each other and everything major is mentioned in and derived from the story. Increasing object numbers and adding Dark World-ishness is kinda how Freeze to the Past started to come out and is almost how Cousin of Powers became.
This feeling is what BBIV should be based on, which is bound to include a smart map building. Through the BB series, it was sometimes a main problem that I allocated too big map area based on the size of estimated content. Like, there was the big main overworld in BB, then another map meant only for Lake Hylia. Actually, Lake Hylia completely could have been placed at the south side of the main overworld, or as I originally planned, in the northeast corner (just as Zora's Waterfall then). Many dungeon sections could receive such compacting, since for example a simple walk-through lane doesn't require a whole 16x11 combo screen.
This was one of the things that could determine how a quest feels, the next is a kind of uniquity. Through the BB series, I planned completely new type areas many times, I just eventually sticked to already existing tiles/combos. This should be different from now on, I should plan only what I will execute and I should execute what I planned.
This all for a monumental feeling of a world unlike others. Cameos, references will be pushed down to minimal level.


II. Tileset
a.k.a with what framework should I start with

I considered all of them, especially Pure for a change. I know that all tilesets have a hidden error that always makes me mind my choice, but these can be worked around with considerable knowledge of ZC... however, I don't want to spend time finding these, so I would probably stick with a DoR. I had my fun time falling back to 1.0 for CoP, now I would try again with 2.0, I just fear loss of uniquity. Most of the DoR2.0 screens I see are like they were from the same quest and I'm not sure if I can differ enough. I'd like a completely own tileset, but then making that tileset would add to the quest development time which I don't want to stretch too long.
In what I want to differ? A new style of elevation layout would be great. Imagine a half-muddy, half-grassy slope going up, next to being a stone chamber wall (a small building built into the hillside) which has a vertical mud wall on the other side and a rocky mud road path taking a curve next to the scenery. New buildings would be great, but not in Zelda style. Wooden, stone and brick houses with no cartoony-ness or medieval-ness. And general logic. I don't want to follow the default way that the tileset maker carved out for me. Attempts for that in the BB games were existent already... walkable forest brush, walkable house top and some unique mix-and-match. What I surely change is what is easy to change. Ground tiles and invidual 16x16 objects, like bushes. Again, I don't want to follow the set paths, so the usual "grass->dirt->rock->minitree->slash, slash, slash, slash the bush and tall grass" might get nonexistent.


III. Graphical display
a.k.a how should the eye parse BBIV

Differently than before. All items will get completely new looks, because they will be completely different. Even the bombs, key, boss key mechanics will be completely swapped for something new, so this all needs to be graphically represented. *walks around the art room in a circle, pointing at things* Metal. Wood. Human skin. Monster skin. Fur. I was closely examining how to draw them correctly, when do I need outline and when I don't. Size? 3D effect? Bending? Curves? Blowing up TARDIS? Hm?


IV. Size
a.k.a does it matter?V

Let's make it shorter this time. 5+1 main dungeons are enough to use up all the dungeon themes I really long for making and the story can be wrapped up like that nicely, too. I planned it so in SB, too... then I got Carried Away. But not this time. Instead of simple area space increase, I will have more content in the overworlds and have the dungeons be bigger (maybe).


V. Strings
a.k.a all your grammar belong to us

I am sometimes error. Or I just haven't been guessing the required time tense correctly. Or I order the word mix up. But I learned much from mistakes and it will be better in BBIV. Checking by a native English is not likely, since it would be hard/long/problematic/etc. I try to cut back on string number anyway. Even a story type quest doesn't have to be a book. You have no chance to understand, make your tea.


VI. Story
a.k.a... psst! Spoiler!

I could weave the story till eternity... But I won't. It's time to wrap everything up nicely, have everything revealed and have no secret stay in haze. EVERYTHING that was mentioned, touched, hinted at, glimpsed, etc. will need to be clear by the end of the Best ending. Yes, even that. And nothing will be unearthed that directly should lead to a simple direct sequel. For this, big things need to get revealed even from the beginning, because simple dungeon crawling in the first 98% of the quest then a lot of strings that takes 30 mins to read through... not cool man! It's also not good to re-explain already seen events of BBI-III to support new ideas of BBIV. It should look like I planned everything from the start. No sudden revealing that Vaati hid 8 golden/silver/lead thingummiwut in BB in case somebody restores the land and to have these 8 re-invert the world if not found beforehand. No, real Vaati won't turn out to be Zaros only to have an even more real Vaati appear. ...hey, hey! Who let those Daleks in?!
I hope the story will surprise everybody... 'cause it surprised me, too. I can make up such crazy things, it's a wonder that my house isn't a mobile ice cream castle with a rodent infested vent as door and a freezing (but plastic) vulcano with dogs with amputeed legs as living room.


VII. Items
a.k.a what will you use ingame

Not what you did so far. Nothing will resemble of what name they have in ZQ. Boomerang? What? Hookshot? Where? Gloves? Which? Doctor? Who? With new uses... but really... Not even bombs, keys and boss key for you! Everything changes! It's like crack! Actually, it is. But no more story spoilers.



I didn't expect this... I remember standing before the classroom, waiting for the Statistics exam to start, planning BB's title. It became Ballad of a Bloodline, because I planned that Knil&Myra's bloodline will be sacrificed for the royal bloodline. I didn't plan sequel... and when I did, I planned some small quests for each ending... It was only about at IWL6 that I made up the initial sketch of SB (Ballad of the Seasons at that time). When starting SB, I did sketch up BBIII (Ballad of the Ages) and BBIV (Guardian Mask at that time), but it was all different and I didn't know if I make a BBV, too.
And, we are here. BBIV. It all because:
-using 2.10.0
-having friends
-having things to be inspired from
-being able to rework plans on the fly
-having some breaks
Without any of these, I would have stopped in 2009's spring (SB) already, or maybe right at 2008's summer (BB) OR already at 2007's summer (BB).





The gel dies on screen 5x56.
And the CAL is... spoiler. Spoiler. Spoiler. Spoiler. Spoiler.

Edited by CastChaos, 07 February 2012 - 04:56 AM.

[judasrising]

This what i read now looks very very and i have a hope that you CC change the tileset from DoR
to "pure" maybe , and what smaller quest 5+1 dungeons i hope that they are really big.

This is a really awesome text from you.

now a long wait for quest.

[Moosh]

Here's an idea: Use 2.5, hire a scripter to do bosses, don't make items more confusing than they need to be, basically don't F*** with the formula any more than you have already and maybe not even that. Of all the things in BB, SB, and CoP that were bad, the custom bosses were probably the worst. They were confusing and teleported to random places and were pretty much 0 skill and all memorization. If there's one thing you don't want to do, it's end a well received series on a bad note. Use 2.5. No more of that 2.10 confusingness.

[Dawnlight]

My advice for BBIV:

Here's an idea: Use 2.5, hire a scripter to do bosses, don't make items more confusing than they need to be, basically don't F*** with the formula any more than you have already and maybe not even that. Of all the things in BB, SB, and CoP that were bad, the custom bosses were probably the worst. They were confusing and teleported to random places and were pretty much 0 skill and all memorization. If there's one thing you don't want to do, it's end a well received series on a bad note. Use 2.5. No more of that 2.10 confusingness.

^ Everything Stated here. Direct Auto-Warping in Boss Battles will save you in 2.5. Trust me.

Also, please put some thought into your map structure. The colors you used in some of your palettes make my eyes bleed. I would also like to see LESS STYLE-CLASHING this time around. That's one of many things that killed BB in terms of graphics. Random-styled detail does not always equal nice screens.

[Orin XD]

Here's an idea: Use 2.5, hire a scripter to do bosses, don't make items more confusing than they need to be, basically don't F*** with the formula any more than you have already and maybe not even that. Of all the things in BB, SB, and CoP that were bad, the custom bosses were probably the worst. They were confusing and teleported to random places and were pretty much 0 skill and all memorization. If there's one thing you don't want to do, it's end a well received series on a bad note. Use 2.5. No more of that 2.10 confusingness.

All of that for several reasons; 1) 2.10 is considered buggy as hell, moreso than the recent 2.5 betas; 2) 2.5 has many features that 2.10 could only dream of doing, like item editor, enemy editor and scripting; 3) 2.10 outdated, refusing to work on windows vista and especially on windows 7.

The only thing that could be of a problem in 2.5 is the layout, which takes getting used to. If you don't want to work on the 2.5 layout, then you can switch to the 2.10 layout.

I have a couple of scripts I made that I can dig from my comp if you need any. With a few fixes, most of them will work as clean as a whistle.

[Shane]

Heres my opinion. Make your quest logic. A warping gamecube isn't logical. A soilder that turns into a tree isn't logical. Logic is the key here. Also don't use Megaman graphics nor any futuristic features. Keep it Zelda.

Go to Weekly Random Reviews, your work there is reviewed constructively I think this is how much I can sum up my thoughts.

Edited by Shane, 27 November 2011 - 11:31 PM.

[Russ]

Heres my opinion. Make your quest logic.

This. I'll admit, I haven't actually finished BoaB. I got through the "WATER!" boss, and then my computer crashed, and I haven't gotten around to replaying it. I will say this though: The triggers in the game were absolutely horrible. Why does hookshotting a mushroom make it disappear? Why does burning a rock make it vanish? Why does hitting a soldier turn him into a tree, and then why can that tree still spot you. It makes no. Freaking. Sense.

From what I've seen, you have amazing potential here, but you need to polish up some things. Bear in mind, you might have fixed all this in the last two games (which I have yet to get to), but my point still stands. Everything should make sense. And a whole lot of BoaB doesn't.

[Moosh]

So there's 4 votes to use 2.5. Can't say I have high hopes for CC deciding to follow our advice, though...countless people have said to make stuff make sense and little has changed. Here's hoping, though.

[Nick]

"Switch to 2.50 because 2.50 quests have features that make quests awesome by default" is a poor reason to suggest upgrading to 2.50. Scripting, itself, does not make a quest awesome either. It is the design of a quest using what is available to it that can make it awesome.

With that said, there are several things that would improve the custom bosses considerably in 2.50 without scripting.

• Up to 8 unique warps can exist on a single screen (4 side warps and 4 tile warps).
• Auto warp combos that can trigger sidewarps. No more having to move to trigger the next part of the boss.
• Random warp combos would allow you to randomly choose between 4 different warps on the screen. It would be truly random.
• Screen carry over so that you can avoid messy transitions. If Link throws an item, it will still be flying when you warp to the next "screen" if you want it to.
• The ability to make secret flags trigger individually.
• Free Form Combos. Even without scripts, these are insanely useful since you can attach secret flags to them.

But at the same time, 2.50 really can get complicated. Several things you would be familiar with have moved around. The large mode of ZQuest can be intimidating, though it's possible to turn off if you don't like it. Some things that were once simple to do with a quest rule or two are no longer quite as simple. The new editors (items, enemies, subscreen, and such) are a bit complex. It would be a learning experience to switch and it would increase the development time a bit.

I just felt like stating this since so many people are just saying "switch to 2.50" without really giving a list of advantages or disadvantages.

As far as actual suggestions, here is one that I suggested in my ZCR review of BoaB and is still applicable in CoP: Stress who is speaking.

Let's make an example. Pretend that each CODE tag is a new string.

CODE

Link: I am the link guy. I do
link things and all kinds of stuff.
Zelda: I am the Zelda.

It's hard to tell since this isn't actually put into ZC, but this tends to run together. It just doesn't really stress who is talking. Reading multiple strings where the character randomly switches in the middle can get confusing after a while. However...

CODE

Link: I am the link guy. I do
link things and all kinds of stuff.

CODE

Zelda: I am the Zelda.

It's possible to fix this somewhat by moving to a new string when a different character starts speaking, regardless of how much room you have remaining. This makes it clear to me that Link has stopped speaking and Zelda has started up. Another, optional way to stress things even more is to put all character names in CAPS.

CODE

LINK: I am the link guy. I do
link things and all kinds of stuff.

CODE

ZELDA: I am the Zelda.

If you don't follow anything else people have suggested, at least consider this. It would make the plot way more readable.

[CastChaos]

If you don't follow anything else people have suggested, at least consider this. It would make the plot way more readable.

That is how I did before BB... But if I do it again, the 2048 strings become 3060... Not a big problem for me if the file doesn't get corrupted because of it, but you people keep complaining of the many strings. I try to keep it down this time, by:
-skipping random personal reactions of characters
--("For a moment, I thought we were back at XY isle" skipped)
-skipping intermission sentences that lead from one topic to other
--("So, this was my opinion on the main evil. Now it's time to discuss where to go next." skipped)
-trying to explain directions short
--(instead of "My grandpa worked at a mine that is occupied by ghosts now. In the opposite direction is a floating tower. Go east from that to the big hole. It has Gorons and Zoras fighting over some solid fire. Maybe they stop fighting if you find its rich source underground.", I should rather "Gorons and Zoras are fighting at the northeast, I wonder if they can be reasoned with something there.")
-cutting to the main topic in story scenes
--(instead of "There was a lovely town of miners there. XY was such a nice boy in it, but when he grew up, he became an evil sorceror. The north town was a nice woodcutter town before he destroyed it. The south town was a pretty pillow maker town before he destroyed it. He even made four seals that make him immortal.", I rather should "XY is an evil sorceror who destroyed the two towns and ensured his immortality with four seals.")



Nick:
Your point on 2.50 is the best I ever heard.
So far I only got the simple "switch to 2.50, it's better, because... because it's better", topped with such craziness like the "2.10 is considered buggy, 2.50 is less buggy" in this thread and even worse autist/adhd things longer ago, as well as clues that the suggesters are simply just caught in the 2.50 marketing.

The things you listed are something I indeed miss from 2.10.0 now.
I don't miss other 2.50 features, since what's the point if they don't work (topped with other non-working things that worked in 2.10.0), like, I tried to put "boomerang block" flags on FFCs in NTCC, but they had no effect like this. Bumm, one would-have-been-useful feature is ruled out. The enemy editor and other editors also provide less possibility than what my fantasy would desire, ever since b2.16b, I constantly run into things that seem to be possible when looked at in ZQ, but doesn't work while playing and I would bet anything that this won't change in the version that will be considered stable.
That "things are at a different place" is really hateable. Things were moved for the illusion of being new, menu positions switched with the sole intention to not be in the same order like in 2.10. I hate all the "liberal american nerd in the parent's basement" mentality that 2.50 and its developers emate. If I hoped a stable version beyond 2.10.0, I surely would get frustrated and never make BBIV on the version that is made by LoZ haters (Zelda CLASSIC made by LoZ haters? Joke of the century.), whos keep adding new, buggy, but even not so useful in bugless state features instead of fixing bugs and stretching the version number from 2.10.0 to 2.50rc2 without releasing a normal version inbetween even though there were so small steps long ago like 1.90->0.92b... No. BUT if I don't think about whos are making it and who is the majority that is using it, AND I don't look at it as something that easily could have been 3060% better, rather look at it as something that doesn't have a better alternative (those few other Zelda and other RPG engines are also buggy and even harder to learn) then it becomes almost OK... It still leaves 2.10.0 a 6120% better option, but if I consider that many people can't use 2.10.0 and resort to a beta anyway... Then it becomes almost calm.


Nevertheless, before I would start a BBIV on 2.50, would make a test quest which has features that I would use in BBIV compressed into a miniquest to see what works and what isn't. I know that there were an IINNNSSAAANNEEE amount of beta bugs making NTAEL and NTCC, so much, that I decided I never touch 2.50 after NTCC. And maybe if I make this small test quest on 2.50, that does remind me that no, I don't want this, ever, if no 2.10.0, then rather nothing.
And if I do use 2.50, it's only for the more warps/screen and such conveniences and some small enemy editing and FFCs, it's not like I would fill the file with 100 random scripts. Using 2.50 to the same extent that I used 2.10.0... it would require at least 5 years to learn.



Otherwise, I'm not even going for the same feeling like BBI-III was. I denoted a whole paragraph telling about that there will be new style. But that "new" is taken very freely... it could be new only compared to BBI-III.
No strange secret combos, etc. And everybody's BBIV. A BBIV of people.

As for items, consider for example this: the candle item is a bubble blower and the fire sprite is a soap bubble.
Now.
When getting this item, it's throughfully explained what it is for (and when it's not obvious what it's NOT for, then that's mentioned, too), maybe with something like a Mega Man X "item got" screen where the item's use is shown THEN the player needs to use the item in the same way. As well as what is in many games: NPCs reminding the player fro the correct use of the item. Only this latter is applicable when the item is bought, not picked up.


Also, no merging other games into BBIV. For example, there won't be reploids this time. No Dynamo asking for money or HCP. (This actually can be derived from SB, since the reploid power source was destroyed.) This merging or no merging is actually part of the story.


This is the last BB game. No error margin is allowed.

[Shane]

Also mind if I add there is a feature that can change speedtext, colour, custom SFX etc? May I ask this might be the best way to do things:

CODE

\2\0 \1\8\3 Marryloo:\2\5 \1\1\1 Hey! So what are up to? \20\X*gasp* Really?

\2\0 - this here changes the text's speed 0. 0 = instantly appears, perfect for names.
\2\5 - this (5 part that is) here is ZC's default speed you can modify the number to whatever you want. The higher it goes, the slower it gets, keep that in mind btw.
\1\8\3 - 8 represents cset 8 and 3 represents the third colour within it. Say if this were DoR then the text would be red.
\1\1\1 - the first cset of the first colour, white in DoR I believe.
\20\X - X represents SFX number you can add 2 SFX if you want to, 3, 4, 5, etc.

There is many more so be sure to check this out.

Edited by Shane, 28 November 2011 - 05:15 AM.

[Migokalle]

That is how I did before BB... But if I do it again, the 2048 strings become 3060... Not a big problem for me if the file doesn't get corrupted because of it, but you people keep complaining of the many strings.

Has anyone actually complained about this? o.O What an odd thing to complain about. I think you may have misunderstood them, the problem was, as Nick pointed out, the fact that a lot of strings had more than one character speaking at the same time, which got confusing. As for your ideas on how to make less strings, I think taking out what makes the conversation sound like an actual conversation is a really bad idea. Then the dialogue just becomes 'go here, get this' and so on. That, naturally, ruins the immersion of the world, so I'd suggest not doing that.

Also, I don't think I've ever heard of questfiles being corrupted due to a high number of strings. Are you sure this is even possible? I mean, I don't know myself, but I've never heard of that actually happening.

Good luck though.

[Dawnlight]

My Golden Memories Demo was 8.75 MB. The current GM .qst file is 9.24 MB. As long as it's compressed there's nothing to worry about.

[Moosh]

So far I only got the simple "switch to 2.50, it's better, because... because it's better", topped with such craziness like the "2.10 is considered buggy, 2.50 is less buggy" in this thread and even worse autist/adhd things longer ago, as well as clues that the suggesters are simply just caught in the 2.50 marketing.

autist/adhd

I find this extremely offensive.

Also, I wouldn't find you using 2.10 so distressing if you didn't cut corners on stuff. A lot of your custom bosses skip around or don't make any sense whatsoever. If you look at one of Shoelace's bosses side by side with your bosses, it's just sad. With 2.5, you have FFCs and scripting and a ton of stuff 2.10 didn't have and with it so near completion, I don't see why you're stubbornly refusing to switch. You'll have to learn 2.5 eventually.

Also, none of us are going to bother to play your quest if you stubbornly refuse to listen to our advice.

Unless you want the only people who play your quest to be vraelo, chiefbigcalf, Judasrising, and maybe Twilight_Knight, you should get off your high horse and listen up.

[CastChaos]

Has anyone actually complained about this? o.O What an odd thing to complain about. I think you may have misunderstood them, the problem was, as Nick pointed out, the fact that a lot of strings had more than one character speaking at the same time, which got confusing. As for your ideas on how to make less strings, I think taking out what makes the conversation sound like an actual conversation is a really bad idea. Then the dialogue just becomes 'go here, get this' and so on. That, naturally, ruins the immersion of the world, so I'd suggest not doing that.

Also, I don't think I've ever heard of questfiles being corrupted due to a high number of strings. Are you sure this is even possible? I mean, I don't know myself, but I've never heard of that actually happening.

Good luck though.

Yes, many people had BB freeze because the many strings. (somehow it was unquestionably deducted to string number, like, it always happened while strings, usually the first one)

Dawnlight:
That huge and no problem? Maybe 2.10 it is, then. Because it's usually fixed by changing teh screen resolution, but 2.50 has it handled by a launcher already.

Shane:
Ah yes, string formatting. SFX, item giving and colours, that I knew. So, speed also can be modified, interesting.
However I remember now what was one annoying thing in 2.50... not being able to click into the black string box, itself. It's hard to calculate how long width certain amount of words will take up if the input field has different shape than the output field. I guess it's because especially those codes.
So, character name appearing immediately, then coming the text... Interesting.



However, if I start BBIV on 2.50, that requires entirely different layout, since then I don't have to allocate a whole new screen for a house entrance in a town. Nor for an NPC. Nor I need a duplicate screen for conversations. That actually leads to better map management.
And I need to plan very much in advance to have everything have the feeling I desire and to have balance. Maybe ZC2.50 is the new feeling I need. I'm speaking too soon, but it's all okay.


So, no cutback on strings, just sanitization and then improvement of them. With this much of new ways to arise, it's great that I plan it to be shorter.


About Zelda...
How much Nintendo-Zelda this quest is, or how much filled with things made up entirely by me, is actually part of the story, so this thread isn't about going deep into that. BB was meant to be an LttP sequel in the beginning, but that's where it ended, in the beginning. That's why no "TLoZ" before SB's title. It will be all nicely explained in the story scenes (that things that are lying except at the end of the Best ending).
Maybe it would be fun to make an only Zelda quest once...


I actually forgot some of the items I planned and their order, so it is what I'm building up now in mind.