205 replies to this topic

[Adem]

It's nifty an idea. It'd be nifty if you could script a Level-Up system. That was the only thing I liked about ZII.

As far as size goes, couldn't you just scale it down a bit? No need to have several screens of just water surrounding the North Palace, and you could make the amount of terrain between areas smaller without compromising too much of the game's actual map design. Just a thought.

[Radien]

Yes, it's a good quest. Why?

Well then.

Personally, I disagree. I found it sloppy and archaic.

It's nifty an idea. It'd be nifty if you could script a Level-Up system. That was the only thing I liked about ZII.

Heck no. I don't want to make it a sub-par action RPG like the original. And I certainly don't want to do anything requiring extensive scripts. I'd prefer no scripts at all, in fact.

As far as size goes, couldn't you just scale it down a bit? No need to have several screens of just water surrounding the North Palace, and you could make the amount of terrain between areas smaller without compromising too much of the game's actual map design. Just a thought.

I wouldn't use several screens of water, but still... bare minimum, I'd need one "island" screen and one edge of each adjacent screen to contain water. Compare it to the level 1 entrance in the original Legend of Zelda.

However, I am doing my best to envision how much of the Z2 overworld could be simplified/scaled down.

[Adem]

It's nifty an idea. It'd be nifty if you could script a Level-Up system. That was the only thing I liked about ZII.

Heck no. I don't want to make it a sub-par action RPG like the original. And I certainly don't want to do anything requiring extensive scripts. I'd prefer no scripts at all, in fact.

Damn. hahaha

As far as size goes, couldn't you just scale it down a bit? No need to have several screens of just water surrounding the North Palace, and you could make the amount of terrain between areas smaller without compromising too much of the game's actual map design. Just a thought.

I wouldn't use several screens of water, but still... bare minimum, I'd need one "island" screen and one edge of each adjacent screen to contain water. Compare it to the level 1 entrance in the original Legend of Zelda.

However, I am doing my best to envision how much of the Z2 overworld could be simplified/scaled down.

I didn't mean it so literally, I was just using it as an example. There are many areas on the map that are basically stretched out nothingness, if you know what I mean, so it couldn't hurt to condense at least portions of it. But yeah. What you're saying does make sense.

[Radien]

Heck no. I don't want to make it a sub-par action RPG like the original. And I certainly don't want to do anything requiring extensive scripts. I'd prefer no scripts at all, in fact.

Damn. hahaha

Is that directed at my saying that I don't want scripts, or that I thought the action RPG element of Z2 was subpar?...

There are a lot of ways in which I think Z2 is underrated, but I don't think the action RPG element was one of them. It plays like the designers had WATCHED someone else play a few seconds of an action RPG, said "yeah, we wanna do something like that," and based the entire system off of what little they remembered of what they saw. The worst part about it is how you lose your EXP when you die.

Oh yeah, and the fact that the game has "lives" to begin with. It's a rather ridiculous concept in an action RPG.

I didn't mean it so literally, I was just using it as an example. There are many areas on the map that are basically stretched out nothingness, if you know what I mean, so it couldn't hurt to condense at least portions of it. But yeah. What you're saying does make sense.

You are definitely right on that point, but condense it in which direction?... That's the tough part.

Anyway, I've been trying to conceive of this fully before I start working on the ZQuest map, lest I run out of room. Here's a concept graph mapping out how the northwestern world would look. You should find it familiar:

http://oi52.tinypic.com/zlrhtu.gif

Now, of course, this lacks detail. So... I think I should explain how it is designed:

The dark black grid denotes an 8x8 screen map. Each black square of the grid contains 9 smaller cells. (Yes, I'm aware that they're rectangles, not squares.) The center cell -- the biggest one -- tells what the majority of that screen will be devoted to. The eight cells surrounding it are used to show what kinds of terrain will border in each direction. Narrow cells denote screen edges; the smallest cells denote corners. Rock and water are always barriers. Forest areas may contain things that block your way, but they can always be walked around somehow. Everything else is open and fully traversible.

So, this should give you an idea of how one quadrant of the Z2 world would take up 8x8 screens. Well... I say quadrant, but the central western world would be its own 8x8 map, and THEN Death Mountain would be yet another 8x8 map on the mainland. So I guess there would be six 8x8 maps, although at least two of those areas would be kinda like overworld/dungeon hybrids, maybe three (Death Mt., Maze Island, Death Valley).

Edit:
I changed the image to make it more self-explanatory. Replaced the old URL with a new one, above.

[Reflectionist]

Heck no. I don't want to make it a sub-par action RPG like the original. And I certainly don't want to do anything requiring extensive scripts. I'd prefer no scripts at all, in fact.

Damn. hahaha

Is that directed at my saying that I don't want scripts, or that I thought the action RPG element of Z2 was subpar?...

There are a lot of ways in which I think Z2 is underrated, but I don't think the action RPG element was one of them. It plays like the designers had WATCHED someone else play a few seconds of an action RPG, said "yeah, we wanna do something like that," and based the entire system off of what little they remembered of what they saw. The worst part about it is how you lose your EXP when you die.

Oh yeah, and the fact that the game has "lives" to begin with. It's a rather ridiculous concept in an action RPG.

I didn't mean it so literally, I was just using it as an example. There are many areas on the map that are basically stretched out nothingness, if you know what I mean, so it couldn't hurt to condense at least portions of it. But yeah. What you're saying does make sense.

You are definitely right on that point, but condense it in which direction?... That's the tough part.

Anyway, I've been trying to conceive of this fully before I start working on the ZQuest map, lest I run out of room. Here's a concept graph mapping out how the northwestern world would look. You should find it familiar:

http://oi52.tinypic.com/zlrhtu.gif

Now, of course, this lacks detail. So... I think I should explain how it is designed:

The dark black grid denotes an 8x8 screen map. Each black square of the grid contains 9 smaller cells. (Yes, I'm aware that they're rectangles, not squares.) The center cell -- the biggest one -- tells what the majority of that screen will be devoted to. The eight cells surrounding it are used to show what kinds of terrain will border in each direction. Narrow cells denote screen edges; the smallest cells denote corners. Rock and water are always barriers. Forest areas may contain things that block your way, but they can always be walked around somehow. Everything else is open and fully traversible.

So, this should give you an idea of how one quadrant of the Z2 world would take up 8x8 screens. Well... I say quadrant, but the central western world would be its own 8x8 map, and THEN Death Mountain would be yet another 8x8 map on the mainland. So I guess there would be six 8x8 maps, although at least two of those areas would be kinda like overworld/dungeon hybrids, maybe three (Death Mt., Maze Island, Death Valley).

Edit:
I changed the image to make it more self-explanatory. Replaced the old URL with a new one, above.

I'm definitely for it. I played the older Zelda II quest a few years ago as well, and while it was okay, more could've been done for it. I love your interpretation of the first area. The only thing is that it feels a bit small, with the towns being cramped in, but that's such a minor gripe that it's hardly worth mentioning.

[Snarwin]

Anyway, I've been trying to conceive of this fully before I start working on the ZQuest map, lest I run out of room. Here's a concept graph mapping out how the northwestern world would look. You should find it familiar:

http://oi52.tinypic.com/zlrhtu.gif

Looks pretty good. The one thing I would change would be to shrink the rightmost column to about half its size, and reclaim bottom 3 or 4 screens for the central region. The area they represent isn't really that important in the original game, and the space your current map devotes to it seems a little disproportionate.

To a lesser degree, I get the same feeling from the long mountain path in the leftmost column--and since it ends in a cave, it doesn't have to end adjacent to the map below it. I'm not really sure what else you'd use those screens for, though.

...man, Zelda 2 had a lot of empty space in its overworld.

[Radien]

I'm definitely for it. I played the older Zelda II quest a few years ago as well, and while it was okay, more could've been done for it. I love your interpretation of the first area. The only thing is that it feels a bit small, with the towns being cramped in, but that's such a minor gripe that it's hardly worth mentioning.

Hey, Reflectionist. Haven't seen you for awhile.

Thanks, I'm glad you like it. The towns won't be quite as cramped as they seem. With version 2.5's built-in multiwarp, I can easily have two or three or even four houses on one screen. I was accounting for that when I designed them. Of course, if I find that I need more room, I'll expand them. Both of the towns on this first map have directions in which they can expand.

Note that just because all you see is a straight road, that doesn't mean it's going to be a boring, empty expanse. The one on the seashore would likely be a winding seaside road. Perhaps even have parts you have to hop over (via the Roc's Feather), a little like in the original game. And I do plan on having enemies in those areas.

I am obviously trying to avoid using those little town warp icons. Since, as one of you mentioned, Z2 has a lot of open space (meant largely for "random encounters"), I'm trying to fill that space with towns and stuff, the way LTTP did. Sorta.

Yes, I don't have to have the southwest cave at the very bottom. I could move it up. I tried it once already, but I didn't like the result. You see, I am trying to follow the Z1 rule of "every screen contains something, even if it's just a dead end with enemies." In other words, none of the screens are entirely untraversible. So if I moved that cave north by one screen, I would want to put something else in that spot, which might end up looking weird. I'd much rather move Ruto south a bit.

So, I haven't uploaded them (yet?), but I have made some more simple Excel maps for the central mainland, and the northern, central, and southeastern parts of the eastern continent. Right now it's looking like I'll need to have an entire 8x8 map dedicated to Death Valley. Trying to fit it on the same map as the rest of that region leaves it squeezed really tight. Mazes tend to take up a lot of space! Well, unless you use a Lost Woods-style maze path... but... meh. I am not worried about constructing the cave networks for Death Valley and Death Mountain, since Death Mountain Trail in Master Quest was very, very similar to both of them.

Since this is Z2, even if I don't have the traditional spells, I feel it's appropriate to have a lot of magic-using items. After all, there needs to be a reason to go after those magic containers. It's nice that Z2 has a whole ten upgrade items you can find by wandering the overworld; it helps give purpose to some of the otherwise empty areas.

I am thinking of nixing the "fetch quest" items that are used to "earn" spells. Instead, villagers could say that they made a magic item, but it was stolen, and here's where you should look for it; if you find it you can have it, since you're saving the world and crap. As implied, spells would be replaced with items, since that's what ZC is made for. Aside from the three Goddess spells, the main exception to the phasing out of "spells" would be "Fairy." I'm thinking of using the flippers and giving Link a Fairy animation while "underwater," disabling diving, and only using "water" for pits that need to be crossed, etc. Since Z2 didn't have any actual swimming, this will work, but I need to work out my cues to show the player that it is a "fairy" location. My other idea was to use the Hover Boots as the Fairy spell, but I don't think there are Link tiles specifically for hovering, so there would be no Fairy animation while he hovers.

Since there's no "Upward Cleave" (a.k.a. "Rocket Stab"), I would instead replace it with a useful sword ZC technique. Stomp Boots roughly equate to "Downward Cleave/Sword Plant," but I'm not sure whether I want to use the Stomp Boots. I'll have to check them out. If I nix both of the sword techniques, as I expect to, I'll simply replace them with the Spin Attack and one other useful ZC sword tech.

Z2 is unpopular largely because they removed bombs, the bow and arrow, and the boomerang. Oh-emm-eff-gee, what were they thinking. So I'll probably use the bow and arrows to replace the Fire spell, and the boomerang will be found somewhere else, early in the game. And of course, the quest will have rupees, which were strangely absent in Z2. I haven't decided whether to use True Arrows or not, but I'll probably put quivers, bomb bags, and money in the spots that used to hold 1-ups and P-bags. Not sure about wallet upgrades; I've never liked the idea of limiting money.

Oh, and I hate magic keys. Quite possibly the most ill-advised Zelda item ever -- they have a tendency to break quests. So either I figure out a way to keep it from breaking the quest, or I give the player a Big Key in its place, and fill level 6 with tons of "boss" doors.

[Sheik]

Radien, while I can't add much or anything at all of value to the discussion, I simply wanted to say that I like the direction this is heading. I was undecided wether to post that at all, because it, well, does not provide anything useful actually, but I figured that a little support every now and than isn't wrong, either.
So yeah, I'm looking forward to see this developing. I have a feeling this is going to be great.

[Radien]

Radien, while I can't add much or anything at all of value to the discussion, I simply wanted to say that I like the direction this is heading. I was undecided wether to post that at all, because it, well, does not provide anything useful actually, but I figured that a little support every now and than isn't wrong, either.
So yeah, I'm looking forward to see this developing. I have a feeling this is going to be great.

No no, thank you very much for posting! member interest isn't absolutely necessary, but if there IS interest, I'll be that much more motivated!

As you can see I'm trying to be really efficient about this. I hope I can produce something of real quality in a relatively short amount of time.

[Twilight Knight]

Well, it seems to me like you have a totally right set up for this. That map looks good and I wonder how you will make it in Zquest, but I'm already getting a snazzy image of it in my head. Way to go!

[Radien]

Well, it seems to me like you have a totally right set up for this. That map looks good and I wonder how you will make it in Zquest, but I'm already getting a snazzy image of it in my head. Way to go!

Thanks!! I wonder what you are imagining.


...Haha, I just had a funny idea... In later versions of ZC, I could use "No Enemies" flags to prevent enemies from walking on the road, as a sort of Z2 tribute. This might kinda break the game, though (allowing you to kill enemies from safety), so maybe I shouldn't do it.

[trudatman]

do it early in the game while the options to hurt the enemies are limited.

[Twilight Knight]

Well, I'm not sure I can explain what I imagine...

When you said that road close to the beach would be a windy path with holes in it and all that, I just got a flashing image in my head of a lovely game setting... Seagulls flying around, and enemies scourging around the path Link is hopping around on. And that long mountain path was a descending (in height from north to south) cobblestone path with grass growing in between it and nice vegetation along the road.

I know it doesn't sound to special... but it is much better in my mind.

[Radien]

Well, I'm not sure I can explain what I imagine...

When you said that road close to the beach would be a windy path with holes in it and all that, I just got a flashing image in my head of a lovely game setting... Seagulls flying around, and enemies scourging around the path Link is hopping around on. And that long mountain path was a descending (in height from north to south) cobblestone path with grass growing in between it and nice vegetation along the road.

I know it doesn't sound to special... but it is much better in my mind.

Haha, sounds quite pretty. That'd be hard to do with LTTP mountains, but in BS I just might be able to manage it.

BS trees are rather scrawny, though. The original game didn't have much more than bushes and dead tree dungeon entrances.

Oh, also, you might already know this, but while descending mountain tiers are possible, hopping from one to the next is quite problematic. I can have descending cliffs, and I might be able to have hopping across water, but not both at the exact same time.

[Twilight Knight]

Well I might show you this, how I'm trying to pull off a descending mountain:
http://www.twccgamin...ingmountain.png
(The map obviously isn't done yet..., don't pay attention to the half green vine on the right)
What I try is that I build it from the highest point to the lowest (I just felt like it, not sure if lowest point to highest point is easier or in reverse...) and everytime it seems like a good spot to do it, I make another mountain level, which "pushes" the higher levels of the screen. Let me see in BS... (a tileset I never used before). Well it seems that it is just not possible with it's current tiles, it needs to have walkable ground on the mountain itself. It's possible that you kinda place the mountains in a way they seem descending, and the player has to walk over some darker, slow combos in between them:

But I honestly don't think it looks good, especially not with theis quick editing I did...

You have to be more imaginative for this one, but I suppose it's best to just change the mountain tops to walkable ground, like I quickly edited here:


Hope this helps a bit.