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How big is "Too big" for an Overworld?


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#1 Anthus

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 01:34 PM

I was going to make a poll, but I couldn't really think of a good way to set it up. So, how big of an overworld do you consider too big? This will likely get a lot of different responses from different people with varying preferences, but I'm curious to see what the average ZC player deems as an unnecessarily large OW. This can depend a lot too on what there is to do in said overworld. For example, a standard 8x16 NES map might be too small for 13 dungeons, but that might not be enough to fill a 16x16 OW. It could also depend on what types of areas you have. How you get around, and how interesting/ different areas feel from one another. This will also come down to whether a player prefers OW exploration, or prefers exploring dungeons more.

 

For me, I don't think any one size is "too big". I think it really depends on what you have going on. If you have some massive map that uses 9 BS maps, but only have 6 dungeons, you better be packing some really interesting stuff in those screens. The inverse is also true. I don't liken it when stuff feels too squished together, or close.



#2 Lüt

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 02:09 PM

It's too big once it gets boring.

 

...and to prevent boredom, you'll need an array of continually varying design styles, themes, locations, colors, mechanics, enemies, etc.

 

You'll also need to make sure excessive commutes are kept in check. If your continue system starts you at the very beginning every time you die or save, you will need a shortcut system, no question. If you save at all major points along the way, shortcuts still help people quickly revisit areas they feel the need to check again. Z1 was very smart with its whistle system and choose-any-road screens.

 

Take care of all that, and you can go ahead and build me Planet Earth v2.


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#3 Anthus

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 02:31 PM

Making repeat commutes not a chore is a huge priority for me. Once you navigate a big chunk of map and reach a landmark it shouldn't be a slog to get back there or near there every time. People will get burned out quick, unless they really like playing ZC. :P Of course, if you want to walk it and go slow, go right ahead.

Doing this though in practice requires some extra thought to how and why areas flow together. If the player hops around too much relying on the whistle or warps, it might be harder for them to grasp where they are in the game world. Each area needs to be interesting, and have a sense of.. Cohesion, I guess, but I feel like there's a better word.

You're first line says it best, Lüt. :)

#4 Lüt

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 02:58 PM

You're first line says it best, Lüt. :)

That's all I was originally going to post.

 

But, I figured I should add some specifics so that it doesn't look like a non-answer, even if it's just an extended way of saying the exact same thing heh.

 

World context does raise some issues though. Warping to points unknown or as yet unexplored can work to your benefit or detriment depending how you want your map to flow. You don't want to get too far ahead of yourself and land in impossible or dead-end situations, but sometimes being dropped into the unknown with no sense of direction can also be exactly what you want.

 

That's another thing I like about Z1: you get both options. The scope of the whistle is limited to locations you've already visited and continues to expand as the game progresses, while the take-any-road screens can land you in totally new territory. And nothing's to say you couldn't rehash the take-any-road system as a complete cave warp system like Lost Isle or Second Quest Layered did, and set it up so that different items allow access to different warp gates, thus limiting how far ahead people can jump without certain items. Or you could even make little warp palaces or shrines or whatever. Lots of possibilities with all the new options ZC has.


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#5 Russ

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 02:59 PM

I'm gonna basically echo Lut's sentiments. There is no too big as long as you keep it varied and allow for fast travel. To pull some example, Nargad's Trail was huge (not sure how many maps, but it was BIG), but most areas were unique and multiple forms of fast travel were available to you if you needed to backtrack. Likewise, Lost Isle clocks in at six 16x8 maps. A 48x16 overworld. But again, it was kept manageable with a fast travel system (though it could have been handled slightly better) and had variety in its areas. And of course, there's Hero of Dreams, which was top in the database for a while, with (I think) around 4 overworld maps (though not every screen was used, I believe). There is no too big, so long as you keep it interesting. And, of course, you keep motivated to build it. :P
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#6 TheLegend_njf

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 04:46 PM

From my own experience, If I were you I'd aim for an 8x8 or an 8x16. Anything larger than that should generally be avoided unless you know what you are doing (For example Isle of Rebirth is a large quest that done very well because Evan knew what he was doing). Many quest designers take on these huge starry eyed quest ideas that I myself have been guilty for more than once.

 

This is more of a technical issue than "how would it affect the game", because if you got what it takes, there is no limit to how big the world can be. But unless you know truly how difficult it is to make a large quest with a large overworld, don't do it. 


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#7 Castelia

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 06:22 PM

As many others have said here, an overworld is only too big once the creator starts running out of ideas for settings, landmarks, and so on. As long as everything's unique and nice to look at, any size should be pretty good.



#8 Reflectionist

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 12:46 AM

Good points here, by everyone. The overworld I'm planning takes up 9 BS-overworlds, in a square formation. Its similar to how LttP was set up, but would be slightly larger.

So far, Ive decided on using the Pegasus Boots script and Moosh's excellent Cliffs script to make the navigation easier.

Aside--Im loosely basing my map on a corruption between LttP and Breath of the Wild, but since I havent played BotW, Im just using its map for inspiration.

I thought about setting up a cave system that would span a single 8x8 map that would have different entrances to the same cave from all over Hyrule. Certain items make this cave quicker to navigate as progression continues.

It seemed much easier and more game design-y than trying to progression gate around the 3-stair Warps.

I'd love to be able to have my Whistle Warps work like in Minish Cap, or Ocarina. You warp to where youve discovered, but not necessarily where you have cleared. Can that be done?

Edited by Reflectionist, 19 March 2017 - 12:50 AM.



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