45 replies to this topic

[Freedom]

I just didn't like the fact that every area is a couple screens away. I know it's supposed to be a castle with chambers and all that. That's why I don't like it. You can't please everyone. I never rate on screens alone unlike some people around here. I'm not saying that Castle Haunt 2 is bad. Just not my style.

I'm unsure about on what the first sentence is supposed to mean though.

Yep, but that's all part of it too, I basically try to knock out 2 quests a year, a large quest, like Link to Tortuga or The Adventures of Robinhood, and a Castle Haunt, as a quick whip together shoot-em up kill the bad guy and go home.

I knocked out both CH I and CH II in about 30 days each.
They aren't intended to be some epic adventure or masterpiece, they're meant to give a few laughs and a couple ours of enjoyment.
People that take them seriously are missing the whole point.

The type of rating system here doesn't distinguish between a quest that's taken a year to build or a quest that was knocked out in 30 days, simply because people who rate them either don't know or don't care about how much actual effort went in to making what they are rating.

Quest ratings are supposed to reflect on what the quest maker has done as a whole, not on how the person rating it would have done it, or thought it should have been done, that part of thier opinion should be put into the building of their own quest.

That goes back to the original post in this thread, that quests being submitted are of poor quality....
The way I see it, if a person thinks they are of poor quality, then the quickest way to fix that is to set down, build a better one, and then submit it.

[Skipper]

Damn. I probably shouldn't have said "rating".

What I mean is, most of the newer quests are... pretty sad, recently. Not ALL of them are bad (I play some of them alot, actually) but the majority of the quests seem like the quest maker didn't work on it much.

A while back ago, I saw someone say something like "Well, since you're a newbie, your quest isn't gonna be GREAT, unless you're Shoelace. He just has natural talent."
I COMPLETELY disagree with that. People don't just have "natural talent". He just worked on his quest more, and put a lot of effort into it. Because of this, look what happens: His quest is phenominal. Like I said before, ANYONE, even first-time quest makers, could create wonderfull quests. They just have to put their mind into it. Anyone can do it. ANYONE. They could add something "unique", like a tournament, or even somehow implement an RPG-ish-style battle system. They could make the whole quest a side-scroller. These things could add to the value of the quest.
You know WHY Shoelace's quest is so good? Because he worked on it. It's his first quest, and it's an awesome quest. Because he put a LOT of effort into it. So don't give me any "Well, it's his/her first quest" crap. Like I said, even first quests could be awesome.
Off topic here, but I'm ungrounded. Whoohoo. Go me.

Edited by skipper, 29 June 2006 - 06:09 PM.

[Love For Fire]

Damn. I probably shouldn't have said "rating".

What I mean is, most of the newer quests are... pretty sad, recently. Not ALL of them are bad (I play some of them alot, actually) but the majority of the quests seem like the quest maker didn't work on it much.

A while back ago, I saw someone say something like "Well, since you're a newbie, your quest isn't gonna be GREAT, unless you're Shoelace. He just has natural talent."
I COMPLETELY disagree with that. People don't just have "natural talent". He just worked on his quest more, and put a lot of effort into it. Because of this, look what happens: His quest is phenominal. Like I said before, ANYONE, even first-time quest makers, could create wonderfull quests. They just have to put their mind into it. Anyone can do it. ANYONE. They could add something "unique", like a tournament, or even somehow implement an RPG-ish-style battle system. They could make the whole quest a side-scroller. These things could add to the value of the quest.
You know WHY Shoelace's quest is so good? Because he worked on it. It's his first quest, and it's an awesome quest. Because he put a LOT of effort into it. So don't give me any "Well, it's his/her first quest" crap. Like I said, even first quests could be awesome.
Off topic here, but I'm ungrounded. Whoohoo. Go me.

You really wanna know why Hero of Dreams is so good? Shoelace worked on it for 3 years. You can't expect every newcomer to put together something that good. You need to have an artistic design to make screens look good. I really have to disagree with your saying how questmakers don't try. Just because a quest doesn't look like DoR, HoD, or Hyrule Fantasy doesn't mean they aren't trying.

If you really don't like the quality of the quests, why don't you just make your own? You can use all the "unique" ideas in your arsenal.

[Revfan9]

2 points I'd like to throw in.

1) you can't really judge a quests worth by the rating system.

2) With each quest, a quest builder gains experience, so he may be giving 110% with his first quest, and 80% of his 110% may be getting ate up in trying to learn the program, and how to work with graphics.

I worked just as hard on Quest for Freedom II as I did Link to Tortuga, yet the improvement from on to the other is pretty noticable.
I thought about not even submitting Freedom 1 and 2 because I consider them pretty bad, but if 1 person enjoys playing them, then isn't that what it's all about, just having an enjoyable time with it?

If newbs are hammered for their first quests, then the release of their 2nd or 3rd, which would be acceptable by your standards, may never come. 

Oh so true. On my forums, Billy Ronald is much more active with his quest projects on my forum(Most of you reading this now are thinking "THANK GOD!!!", but just keep reading), ZCP. His latest quest, Link's bath, isn't all that great, but you can see his improvement. The story is original instead of just a ripoff of another quest/zelda title. You can also see his progression throughout the different areas of the quest. Level 1 is too short, but it uses semi-freeform and boss music. Level 2 is again, too short, but uses everything level 1 had as well as an open-ended style. Level 3 is yet again, too short, but larger than levels 1 and 2, and it has a custom boss (actually, it just summons enemies and shoots fireballs at you, but it's a very large improvement)! Level 4 uses true freeform and cutscenes! I've gone back and told him everything I found wrong with the demo, and now he's going back and re-doing most of the demo to make the dungeons larger, have true freeform, and have custom bosses.

I actually, to a certain extent, enjoy playing someone's first quest MORE than I enjoy playing a "5 star quest", simply because I enjoy watching people start out, improve, and I enjoy helping them improve. Who knows? Maybe one day Billy will make a completly original quest with dungeons better than MM:DWR-DC, better overworlds than HD-DC, and a better story than TLD. It could happen... One day maybe I'll make a quest that is actually GOOD. I always rate a quest higher if it's someone's first quest simply because of the porportional difference to someone's 7th quest that they spent 89 years on. Although I do hate Mother brains return's graphics, I gave it an extra 1-up because it had a custom tileset period.

That's just my 2-cents.

[Skipper]

You really wanna know why Hero of Dreams is so good? Shoelace worked on it for 3 years. You can't expect every newcomer to put together something that good. You need to have an artistic design to make screens look good. I really have to disagree with your saying how questmakers don't try. Just because a quest doesn't look like DoR, HoD, or Hyrule Fantasy doesn't mean they aren't trying.

If you really don't like the quality of the quests, why don't you just make your own? You can use all the "unique" ideas in your arsenal.

I'm not saying quest makers don't try, I'm just saying that they don't try hard enough. Some quest makers DO try, though, and yet their quests aren't too good. But, they still tried. I'm alright with that. Like I said earlier, I don't want this topic to become a flame war, so I'll leave it at that. And, I AM making my own quest.
I was wishing that this topic would:
1: Get new quest makers to try 100 percent in making their quest, and so forth.
2: Give people inspiration. (Especially those who are new to ZQuest.)
3: Others to give advice.

Not:
1: Start flame wars.
2: Get pissed off at one another.
3: People complaining.

Now, I can see which quests people actually put a lot of time and effort into, and also quests that look like they were half-done. I'm not insulting quest makers who did not put 100 percent into making their quest, but only trying to encourage them to GIVE 100 percent in the making of their quest. That's all. I don't want people to be like "Well, you know how hard that would be? How about you just forget about it?"

And now, for some words of... something: Can a moderator or administrator please close this topic? I probably should have known that it would get so out of hand... I'm sorry if I ticked some people off, too. Even though I didn't mean to. My only means of this topic is to give inspiration to newer quest makers to give 100 percent while making their quests. That's all.

[Highsight]

Ok Skipper, here is how I see it. The fact is, these days standerds on quests have been set VERY high. I remember when they were very simple things, not needing a real plot, or even a reason to do whatever you are required too. However, these days, ZC has many new features that allow cutscenes, allow custom bosses, and sooo much more, however, to do them you really need to know what you're doing, or be able to catch on fast. To do that, you need experiance, or a high IQ. Lets face it, many people just want to do a quest the easy, fun way, rather then the annoying, pain staking way. If people start making easy to make quests, they may learn how to make even better quests. That is my stand on it anyway.

[Anthus]

The thing is, these "n00bs" may be trying. As Nick said, you cannot be an expert from the start. It takes time, and practice to get as good as some of the others here. Even though I have been using this program since the begening I still knew very little before I came here. Anyone that played ZTD could tell you it sucked (mostly). But, I am getting better, and I am confident in my ability to make a kick ass quest...

Hmm, that isn't the point. I know what you mean, since I have also noticed a decrease in the quality of recent quest submissions, but the creator is not entirely at fault. Perhaps they are new. I'm trying to be nice and give them the benefit of the doubt, but hey, you could be right, and they could be just plain lazy

[Love For Fire]

I'm not saying quest makers don't try, I'm just saying that they don't try hard enough. Some quest makers DO try, though, and yet their quests aren't too good. But, they still tried. I'm alright with that. Like I said earlier, I don't want this topic to become a flame war, so I'll leave it at that. And, I AM making my own quest.
I was wishing that this topic would:
1: Get new quest makers to try 100 percent in making their quest, and so forth.
2: Give people inspiration. (Especially those who are new to ZQuest.)
3: Others to give advice.

Not:
1: Start flame wars.
2: Get pissed off at one another.
3: People complaining.

Now, I can see which quests people actually put a lot of time and effort into, and also quests that look like they were half-done. I'm not insulting quest makers who did not put 100 percent into making their quest, but only trying to encourage them to GIVE 100 percent in the making of their quest. That's all. I don't want people to be like "Well, you know how hard that would be? How about you just forget about it?"

And now, for some words of... something: Can a moderator or administrator please close this topic? I probably should have known that it would get so out of hand... I'm sorry if I ticked some people off, too. Even though I didn't mean to. My only means of this topic is to give inspiration to newer quest makers to give 100 percent while making their quests. That's all.

I do see some of your points about the diminished quality recently, and I too think people should put effort into a quest. The only thing I really disagree with is comparing newbies' quests with Hero Of Dreams. HoD really is a special case, and not every questmaker has the capabilities to make a really good quest like that.

As long as you do understand that some people do actually try hard and make under-par quests (like you said in your above post), whether it be because they are inexperienced or just not that good, then I won't be antagonizing you any longer.

In fact, to help the purpose of your thread, I think questmakers should build a quest THEY would enjoy. Simply because you can't please everyone. Build a quest you enjoy, and whether people like it or not, you can still enjoy doing it. Everyone starts out a newb, so don't be discouraged if you can't make a Hidden Duality or Link's Birthday your first time around. They didn't (HD was DFW's 5th quest). As I said before, Shoelace's HoD is a very special instance... do not feel that as a new questmaker your first quest needs to be as good as that.

[Joe]

...

I thought about not even submitting Freedom 1 and 2 because I consider them pretty bad, but if 1 person enjoys playing them, then isn't that what it's all about, just having an enjoyable time with it?

...

I believe the only opinion that truly counts for each quest is that of its' designer. However Dude, I think you should quit knocking Freedom II. It was a very good game, one that rates high on the enjoyable meter! A little more positive energy from its' creator and who knows how high it might soar!

Thanks - Joe

[Chii]

...

You know, I had this really long rant about this subject because what I was reading really ticked me off. But, I've decided not to post that and say this instead.

If you're a "n00b" like me, can't program for *hit, and ARE putting 110% into your quest but realize it still sucks in comparison to anything anyone else can come up with, don't read these subjects and keep working on your quest. I'll play them and enjoy them becasue you put your heart and soul into them.

And those of you who are 'experianced'. If you think people's quest suck so badly, offer to help them improve. Tutor them, give them constructive, but positive, critisim, and don't complain about thier lack of skills.

Edited by chiisaiko, 29 June 2006 - 10:06 PM.

[Revfan9]

I agree with you there Highsight... I sometimes want to stop using ZC for quest building and only for playing because everyone expects these really complex tricks from you that are a major pain in the a** on your part. Let's face it: Unless you think copying screens and making minor edits to them THEN getting your quest and yourself bashed is fun, quest building just isn't fun anymore. Unless you have a natural talent for graphics (stares at Gashin), your quest will be bashed for using a tileset everybody can access to. Unless you have a natural talent for screen design, your quest will be bashed for boring screens. Unless you have a natural talent for plots (stares at noone), your quest will be bashed for being unoriginal. I don't even find quest making fun anymore, now it's just an addiction I can't get over. I have to make 23 floor dungeons or I'll get scolded for having dungeons that are far too small. I have to have multi-map overworld areas or I'll get scolded for overworlds that are too small. I don't like making huge dungeons and overworlds because it is boring, repetitive, and the such.

Now Clippy Chronicles... I had a lot of fun with that (although I think I was the only one...). I could make one screen dungeons and it would be acceptable because I was trying to make the quest bad.

[CastChaos]

I also found that nowadays quests are "low(?)" quality, but it's not because they really rubbish, rather my rate level increased (unfortunately).
Seriously, when I first made a quest (Shadow Wars, it's downloadable) I thought I don't use under combos and I thought that using layers is too hard try as well as connected strings. It seemed good, because it had LoZ feeling. I even improved it (added undercombos, etc) and thought that it will be hilariously good, 4-5 star rating. When it first got 1 star with a comment that was totally ununderstandable to me, I became depressed (even though my quest was bug-free, which is rare). The slight increasing of rating wasn't good either. I started to think... I thought that it's super, then what would I think about those whiches got 4-5 stars?
I started to try them and I was astounded by the intros, cutscenes and lots of things that I didn't know how to do, but the quests themselves weren't too good for me... Only HoD and MMDWRDC was really 5 star for me, even though some others also reached 5 star for me, like for example CastleHaunt.
Then I tried to make some quest that reaches the graphical-technical level of those (Shadow Wars II, no longer available), but it wasn't good for the masses either. I then tried a quest with LttP graphics, but deleted when I got depressed by a random thing in life. For a final try, I started FttP(Sequel to LttP) but the best screen were flamed off and some better ones weren't even commented.

So, if you see a quest that you don't like, think about that the questmaker may be enjoyed making it and thought that you would like it, too.
And talent DOES count, some can try very hard without showing something that YOU like.
Besides, the rating system (either star or hearth) is so messed up that I have seen some days ago that HoD got 3 hearths at AGN, while much worse ones got 4.

I really don't think that anybody neglects a quest thinking that people will sure ly like it. If a quest is released, then the author likes it and it's at least 100% for him/her!

[Peteo]

Hmm, well almost everything I had in mind has been already said in this topic.

But it is true that nowadays people seem to be too harsh/rude towards newbie questmakers if compared to the good old days. Of course there's a clear reason for that as quests have gotten much better from the early days (eg 4 years ago Revenge was a definite 5 star quest for me, but if the quest was released today, I'm afraid I would only think of it as a 3 star quest and so on...) and if you're gonna make your first classic style quest with ZC 1.90 it will not become very popular obviously and it will gather stupid comments like "This quest looks so ugly and is so poor. Take a look at HoD! That's how first quests should be like!!!"

So I just think we should be a bit more supportive towards new talent. We need new questmakers. Oldbies are leaving and we need newbies to replace them. The ZC goddess DarkFlameWolf has left, but why some of these newbies couldn't be the new DFW if we're patient enough and they're given enough support. Of course some of these newbies obviously don't put any effort in their quests when the quest is 10 screens long and has tons of bugs and ridiculous grammar errors, but if that newbie has put any effort in his/her quests, he/she surely will get better some day.


And about the rating system, well yeah, obviously you shouldn't play quests just based on their rating. People have different standards of quality and different people rate different quests. IMO there are some 5 star quests in the database that are not that hot but then there are some 4 and even some 3 star quests that are worth a play and some of them even better than some of those 5 star quests... Yeah yeah I know that my quest is the highest rated quest at the moment and obviously I'm proud of it, but DWR is not necessarily the best quest out there. It might just as well be IotW, Swansong, Revenge, HD:DC, HoD etc. The ratings give you only a little hint about quest's quality. A 2 star quest obviously can't be as good as a top quest, but a quest with a rating 4.00 can be as fun as a quest with a 4.80 rating. Or something like that... blah blah.

[Skipper]

...
Okay, just to clear things up:
I'm talking about the quest makers who don't even really try. Not the quest makers who try, but get a bad rating anyways.
Also, Chiisaiko, you're no noob. I can see you are at least putting effort into YOUR quest, what with all the custom-made tiles, asking for help with certain stuff from your quest on the forums, ect. You see, quest like those are quests I must smile upon.If I see that the original author put a lot of effort into the quest, that makes me... happy. I just don't like it when someone releases a quest just for the reason "Well, I just made up a quick quest. I was bored out of my mind, and I know I might get a bad rating". I've SEEN some people who have said this before.

[Chii]

O.o really? I didn't think anyone had noticed...>.> I mean, I had 7 people vote for my quest at the expo (as opposed to 43 for "Lost Isle"), and I'm greatful for those 7, but I felt like I was generally being ignored by the masses because I was new to the site. Like, the majority of people won't give a new person the time of day because they're simply 'new', aka, a 'n00b'.

Still, someone who has done the work and asked for the help will be discouraged. I mean, some people throw together quests in a few months that are on the same level as someone who might have worked for over a year. I mean, yes, I agree with you that someone just throwing something together because they were board doesn't deserve the same credit as someone who has worked really hard. Just know that when I first read this post I was really put off by it.