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HQPFs (Finally) Shutting Down


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#31 Timelord

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 06:54 PM

To be honest, I don't want to try to make extra work for any other administrator. I know when things feel disjointed, but I also know that it is a terrible deal of work to make this kind of device, and the rest of the forum, feel integrated.

 

I would pass on the feeling, that the whole 'modern' interface, pulling away from a forum/bbs format, is just a pain to me. I prefer the forum format, for discussions, over the Twitter format; which would explain why I don't use Twitter. I like plain, readable flowing text, in hierarchical formats, relating to subjective topics.

 

I can see your point, in placing 'Feed' first, but I think this should be a cookie setting for the user. The reality is, that a description for a project is as much an advertisement, as a finished game, and the human mind will latch onto something via descriptions, and visuals. The Update feed as an initial view is a distraction, and makes the interface itself look a bit wrong. People who click on Quest Projects also see only the game titles; which doesn't help to promote the area.

 

If the quest projects list display included a 'short description' of a game, along with the title, and one screenshot, it would make it not only easier to use, but also a more viable feature for both veteran, and for new users. As it is, the list doesn't provide any insight, and it takes multiple page loads just to find out what a game is about, assuming that the title was interesting to the viewer to make them want to load the quest page, then load the description page.

 

You assume that people will load every quest page, but really, they don't. (This applies equally to the Quests Database page.)

 

People will rely entirely on ratings, and for quests that have received one bad rating, and no other ratinga; this can be quite cruel, as anyone can rate a game badly, for whatever reason they desire; and from that point onward, no-one will bother to load the database entry, as they will anticipate that it is a bad, or a broken game. I've run into quite a few under-rated games, that I have truly enjoyed, and into games that have exceptionally high ratings, that I absolutely detested.

 

A more descriptive view of DB entries would be helpful overall, as a future feature. Allowing the questmaker to permit open discussions, would also be useful. The problem with this confined to the 'Updates' page, is that only the questmaker can create a new thread. That creates a feeling of closed-ness--dear me, I have to invent words now--as opposed to the open feeling of the forum, where people can discuss anything, and create topics.

 

Placing this kind of function on the quests directly, would allow people to reach out to the questmakers, or other developers, in a manner that will be noticed, without the questmaker needing to specifically create topics. It also allows people to create hint guides, quest help topics, and such, within the database pages, which make them much cleaner in the end.

 

Obviously, if a questmaker doesn't want to permit this, then the could be able to tick a box 'Do not alllow new topics', or something along those lines, for preferences; however, if you are going to allow that kind of liberty and control over quest (standard, and project) database entries, then you should also permit questmakers to disallow both reviews, and ratings, or any other interaction.

 

I personally prefer the ability to allow people to create topics on my projects. Keep in mind, that some of these will never be genuine games: They are intended as tools to allow others to understand how to use ZQ. That means, that it would be useful for people to be able to post about them, making new topics, that are easy for other people to view.

 

That is the biggest drawback of all though: How visible anything is on the QPDB or QDB: The forums have much higher visibility and that isn't likely to change, no matter how many bells and whistles you add. In the end, a simple interface is usually best. The more clutter you add, the harder it is for people to notice anything. web interface design is sort of a Zen thing, and the more fancy stuff you cram into it, the more it turns into a hideous abomination that can't decide it if is a forum, a Twitter clone, a YouTube clone, GoogleGigaSlave, Qin Shi Huang, or a monstrous combination of all of these.

 

You are handling two different generations of users: Forum people, and Twitter people, and you need to draw a line, to decide which way you want to direct your website. I can tell you, that the more you push toward the Twitter style, the more past-users you will lose due to interface corruption. You may gain new users from this, but in the end, you may also be better off making an entirely different website using that kind of model, and keeping both the old users, with the format that they wish, and attracting new users, in the new format. That makes a community rift, but that can be preferable to a community collapse.

 

You have to be very careful when you decide to walk the line between the old way, and the new way of doing this sort of thing, as some of us stubborn old buggers aren't going to adapt.


Edited by ZoriaRPG, 28 March 2014 - 06:59 PM.


#32 Anthus

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 07:17 PM

I still think the main problem is that people are tied to forums.  I wish this weren't the case because if people used the site more to its full capabilities, I do think it has a lot to offer.  But, the best I can do is to help incorporate the two more.

 

Yeah, like people feel weird about it cause 'it's not part of the forum'. For what it is worth, I think you guys have done a great job with the site, and the Quest Project section is awesome. I think that by linking to the main feed page that shows all updates is a good call, cause it will help it feel more like a forum vs. a 'disjointed entity'. EDIT: I address this briefly below, but how come the quest project pages are only for use with 'in development' quests, and I'm assuming are closed after completion? Wouldn't it make sense, and be less strenuous on the site if all the information pertaining to any given quest was in one spot, instead of having a project page section just for developing, a separate download page (actually, a DL page makes the most sense, cause it's good to have a database of completed quests separate from the projects in development.), then numerous help threads about the quest?

 

Honestly, I think the Custom Quest forum should really just be for discussion, not announcement or help, as those can be addressed from a quest's page.

 

The problem with that is, to my understanding, the Quest Project pages are only for quests in development, so once they are done,  I dunno if people can really still use them .However, I agree; having a quests' respective help threads be with the project page could be useful, and prevent people from starting new topics months after someone else may have already made one for the quest.



#33 anikom15

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 09:24 PM

I swear I saw a way to ask for help directly on a quest's submission page.

 

If that exists maybe a sticky in the order of 'READ THIS BEFORE ASKING FOR HELP' could be useful.



#34 LinktheMaster

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 10:00 PM

Zoria, I really, really think you're sorta blowing a lot of this out of proportion.  You're really acting like project and discussion has been dying, and that's simply not true.  I'll admit there was a little stumbling period there for a while, but I've noticed that project updates have been getting more activity recently.  As you said, it's really just something people have to adapt to, and I think people are.  I don't think it's really causing a rift as you're saying.  It's just a process of adjusting. :shrug:

 

Also, I don't really want to fully open up the same update topics area up to regular members to create topics in.  That would make things cluttered, and it would really make any joint way of searching updates really, really messy.  And I feel that having a separate section for topics would be really pointless and would be somewhat underutillized.  I don't think there's as much of a need for a full blown discussion section as you may think.

 

So, after some consideration, I think I'll probably create a comment section for quest projects.  I think this will allow updates to actually be updates.  That way when I create the mock forum for it, it'll be for its intended purpose.  I wouldn't want one person's update to get pushed down for a "I like your project." comment. :P It'll also add a little bit more of that openness.  I think this is a good compromise.

 

Yeah, like people feel weird about it cause 'it's not part of the forum'. For what it is worth, I think you guys have done a great job with the site, and the Quest Project section is awesome. I think that by linking to the main feed page that shows all updates is a good call, cause it will help it feel more like a forum vs. a 'disjointed entity'. EDIT: I address this briefly below, but how come the quest project pages are only for use with 'in development' quests, and I'm assuming are closed after completion? Wouldn't it make sense, and be less strenuous on the site if all the information pertaining to any given quest was in one spot, instead of having a project page section just for developing, a separate download page (actually, a DL page makes the most sense, cause it's good to have a database of completed quests separate from the projects in development.), then numerous help threads about the quest?

 

 

The problem with that is, to my understanding, the Quest Project pages are only for quests in development, so once they are done,  I dunno if people can really still use them .However, I agree; having a quests' respective help threads be with the project page could be useful, and prevent people from starting new topics months after someone else may have already made one for the quest.

I get while them being uniform might make sense, but the people that go to each is completely different.  Some people want to see and support quests that are currently in development.  There's some people who only want to see completed quests.  Combine that with the fact that the functions of each are entirely different, and merging the two into one database isn't really a good idea.  I think the complexity of the database would outweigh any benefits it may give.

 

For the help topics, I was actually wanting that to be the case.  I think it makes the most sense.  Each topic could be its own question, which makes it so much easier for someone to find help for a quest.  Problem is, the feature wasn't really utilized much.  It's another thing that I really think is a shame since I honestly do believe that if people switched to it, everything would be much better in the long run.  But, as Zoria said, some people are just stuck in their ways no matter how much better new systems may be.

 

So, what I'm doing is coming up with a way to "link" custom quest discussion topics with quests in the database.  The topic will have a header section pointing to the quest, and each quest will have a list of topics that are linked to it.  This will, unfortunately, require people to manually do the linking, but I'm not sure of any better option at the moment.  I'm not sure if I want to have the fake forum like with the project updates.


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#35 Timelord

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 11:01 PM

Linking the quests, and quest projects, to topics in the Custom Quest Discussions board, or somewhere like it, would certainly be a bonus feature. Anything that connects the databases to the forum, for commenting, and posting topics regarding those projects, in a manner that is self-evident is fantastic. My main critique, if it wasn't clear, is that the database entries seem disconnected from the forums.

 

For the rest of my suggestions, I think the biggest, and most useful is to add more details to the list views. This would require the following:

 

Add a 'short description' field to the database entries, with a character limit (200 or so).

Add the 'short description; to the entry editor templates, so that people can add this to their entries.

Create a PHP template that pulls a the quest project title, the short description, and screenshpt-0 from the database; this then creates the HTML output for viewing the databases, so that the list has the hyperlink to the project, base don the Project Title, a short description under that, and a screenshot to the right. (l suggest making this the default view, and make 'plain list' an optional template, by renaming the standard site template, but that certainly isn't necessary.)

 

That suggestion has nothing to do with the removal of the HQPFs. It's just something that would make viewing quests, and quest projects, a lot nicer.

 

For the record, I tossed all of that in your direction, because you asked for suggestions. As I said, I don;t expect anything, nor do I try to pressure people to do more work than is needed on a community (i.e. free) project.

 

One other thing, that I'm going to mention here, because I'm alreafy writing about the site: because you don;t have any mobile skin installed, viewing PZC from an Androd device is semi-broken: The default view setting reads the browser type, and assigns a default skin, based on the response. If you view PZC from most mobile browsers, you will see an error along these lines:

 

'The Mobile Skin Isn't Working Properly'

 

You can then click the URL to view the normal, 'full view'; which I would do in any event; but you may want to address that problem at some point, so that there is a default mobile skin, even if it is the normal, full-site mode, duplicated, and renamed to work as the mobile skin. The main trick here is to remember not to lock people into a de-featured, mobile view in the process of fixing it. The full-mode must remain an option, if you do implement a mobile skin from whatever templates exist for this forum software; to ensure that mobile users with more advanced devices that can use the standard skin, can take advantage of it.

 

I will note that some of the site functions break on mobile devices, due to mouseovers not functioning on touch-screen devices.



#36 Shane

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 11:11 PM

I haven't been advertising my project at all and yet somehow it's quite active in terms of open discussions and whatnot. I mean sure, it feels disconnected from the forums because it's not in the index. But it's not disconnected at all. Completed quests weren't apart of the forum index when the old PureZC was still a thing, and yet it got attention.

 

Advertising the quest project system in the index may help improve the activity for sure, but even without it, there's still activity going around.

 

I'm personally glad the HQPF's are gone and replaced with Quest Project Pages which everyone can access. It feels less like a ZC empire now. :P


Edited by Charizard, 28 March 2014 - 11:34 PM.

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#37 Haylee

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 03:03 AM

I'm sorry, this just really needs to be addressed. I apologize heavily if I come of slightly harsh, I'm just going to say this in the nicest way I possibly can.



As for the qpf closing, my opinion on it is as fully negative as it was the first time it was announced. There are still many QPF things that aren't going into a quest project thread and treating people equally is only supporting the ones who would be viewed lower without forced equality.

For bolded text number 1: Like what? From what I've looked at the Quest Project Pages have just the same amount features PLUS more. I.E. Screenshots, Dev Topics that are automatically invisible, the ability to have multiple creators in an orderly fashion, as well as organizing those important to the quest by them being a "Contributor" or "Advisor". If anything, it has more than the HQPFs had to offer.

 

And for bolded text number 2: I apologize for getting slightly ranty here, but here's the main problem with this. CastChaos, you're a member just like anyone else who isn't a mod or Admin. It means that you are equal to other members. It's not forced equality, because everyone was equal to begin with.

 


You just can't mention a project scrapper early teenager who can't put anything on a screen that doesn't explode into a million of fireballs in a second on the same level as Shoelace/Peteo/Mudvayne/Freedom/etc.

 

(Note: This part goes slightly off topic, I apologize in advance.)

 

So you're saying that just because people have cancelled there quests before, since they feel that they are too busy for ZQuest, makes them a, and I'm quoting you here, a "project scrapper early teenager". The thing is, this hits a little too close to home for me, as despite how much time I put into my first quest, The Minion Files: Blue the Darknut, I made very little progress, due to lack of time, and ultimately, cancelled it while is was still early in the game. This would describe me exactly as a "project scrapper early teenager" as you call it. Now, serious quest or not, by all accounts, that's considered poor sportsmanship. Even if they cancel there quest, it's the experience that matters, not the game being completed.

 

EDIT: This post basically describes my feelings on this.


Edited by Nexas, 29 March 2014 - 03:11 AM.

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#38 Timelord

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 04:52 AM

In some ways, I agree here. I think that the QPDB is a better service; but I also think it needs more continuity to the forums at the same time. I personally prefer that I can post project files to share, without needing to fidget about in the forums. While I have servers at my disposal, to post .qst and script files, others do not; and this keep content on a site that is both trusted, and archived. Anything you post on a 'free filesharing service' could vanish overnight. The QPDB and QDB allow for a level of reliability in this regard, that is otherwise impossible for most people.

 

The screenshots, reviews, and extended features are great tools; but I think they need a bit more polish, organisation, showcasing (as I detailed in my previous post), and most importantly, they need to be interwoven with the normal forum activities.

 

+Deleted by author+


Edited by ZoriaRPG, 30 March 2014 - 07:40 PM.


#39 Shane

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 05:05 AM

All I'm going to say is that I know a lot of people who deserve the same amount of this "special treatment". Who are they? All the people in this community. They all deserve access to hosting their quests in a similar fashion to HQPFs, and I'm glad the Staff acknowledged this. Some talented ZQuesters haven't finished much, but I believe they deserve the same amount of respect as anyone else for being more helpful, modest and certainly more openly supportive.  :)

 

#ZeldaClassicShouldNotBeSeriousBusiness


Edited by Charizard, 29 March 2014 - 06:22 AM.

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#40 bigjoe

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 05:44 AM

I am not very fond of people who try to create a hierarchy over what is essentially a pastime. If anything it shows a lack of character on their part. I have been around Zelda Classic since its beginnings. I have seen entire websites come and go. Granted, this one in particular is one of the strongest running. However, ultimately, in the scale of time, it will fade away into nothingness just as every niche website does. To be exclusionary or offer perks to individuals based on their accomplishments has a really foul effect on some people. People that do have potential and may complete something very good if given the time and motivation.

Something that comes to mind is a recent statement of disappointment by Nightmare. He made a Youtube video showing off his James Quest 2 and got 3 dislikes out of 12 views. What many people do not realize is that Zelda Classic owes most of what it is to Nightmare. He was one of the original beta testers and is responsible for moving Zelda Classic forward a great deal in the past.

 

Sure, it may be commonplace here to offer preferential treatment based on what seem like monumental achievements. But take a step back and look at the bigger picture. Take a step back and look at the potential that people have. It is easy to laud someone who has done a lot for the community, but it is just as easy to lose sight of what someone else has to offer. You may not wish to treat everyone as an equal, but at least treat them fairly.


Edited by BigJoe, 29 March 2014 - 06:17 AM.

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#41 Mero

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 06:23 AM

This is going to sound a bit harsh. But CastChaos, ZoriaRPG and anyone else doing it all Need to take a step back off this whole earning respect and merit thing unless your looking to hurt. Take a look in the Script Database Archives. There's about two pages of scripts there which are mine and mine alone. I also currently hold the record for most ScriptDB submissions. But has anyone ever made mention of me or given me any merit. No, and I would rather they didn't because it would draw attention to me and away from the others. Everybody is entitled and deserve the same level of respect.


Edited by Zecora, 29 March 2014 - 06:39 AM.

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#42 LinktheMaster

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 07:59 AM

Whoa.  We got into a big philosophical thing here, huh? :blah:

 

Zoria, I understand where you're coming from, but I have to assure you that it's not quite true.

 

Part of the reason Zelda Classic is where it is today is because the close knit community that doesn't stress too much on focusing on just the "best" quest makers.  The success of Zelda Classic is honestly in the hands of everyone here, not just a select few like you seem to think.  For as long as I remember, lots of people help each other other out.  Especially since 2.10's release, there aren't a whole lot of big name quests that weren't made with the help and encouragement of others.

 

Look at Radien.  Radien came into the Zelda Classic world with big aspirations of a giant, bold quest.  He promised big things, and sadly, life became too hectic for him to finish it.  But what if no one showed him the time of day because he wasn't a well-known quest maker?  He might not have continued working on it enough to make the DoR tileset, which is one of the most popular tilesets today.  And I find it ironic that you list Aevin in that list.  Not because I disagree with the sentiment, but he's not some ancient quest maker.  He's someone who just sorta popped on PureZC immediately and released an amazing gem.  So what if people hadn't paid attention to his quest because they hadn't heard of him?

 

The reason the Zelda Classic community is still around is because of the low barrier of entry - both in the editor and in the community.  Anyone can come along, post a quest and get views.  If it looks good, people will support it.  If it doesn't, lots of people will offer advice.  This is fantastic and one of the reasons I love this community.  We're all here to make quests for fun.  It's not a competition.  No one is making money of of this.  We're all in this together.

 

But, ignoring all that, communities will always sort of follow the big names.  If a big quest maker starts coming out with a new project, people will naturally gravitate to that and follow that new project.  This is perfectly natural and good!  People who do all that hard work and make quests certainly do deserve all that attention.  No one can deny that.  But what they don't need is some site-forced level of hierarchy that puts them above everyone else.  Why do that when the community will give them the attention they deserve naturally?

 

I'm not going to make something like the HQPFs again that sort of puts some people who are deemed the best above everyone else.  Everyone is going to have access to the same tools - it's up to them to make the best of it.


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#43 Dawnlight

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 08:24 AM

I find it sad that some members would selfishly do anything for all the respect in the world. :( Do you think you guys are doing yourselves a favor for screaming and shouting that you deserve respect? That's like a little kid demanding everyone to be his friend because he said so. 


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#44 DCEnygma

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 09:44 AM

Zoria, you seem to have this misconception that the biggest quest makers aren't held up as a pillar of sorts. That's simply untrue. The community will often hold up the best quest designers and content creators anytime they're asked by someone "what's your favorite quest", "which quest would you recommend" and "who does the most innovative things in ZC?" The biggest issue I have with your idea that we need to treat certain people better than others is that it negates the community from the decision. We don't shove individuals down people's throats, it's up to everyone to decide what they like best.

 

The other mistake is the belief that the content provided by certain quest designers is one of the only reasons PZC is around. Wrong, the community as a whole is the reason that PZC is around. This community supports itself in so many ways ranging far beyond ZC that without them there wouldn't be a forum at all. Related, it doesn't matter how many 5 star quests you've released if you're an asshole, people will ignore you and avoid you anyways. The community, as a result, will ultimately decided for themselves who deserves to be recognized and who doesn't. Be that through people pointing at content by specific creators, the Superlatives, or any other means.

 

You're not going to get me to believe that we need to stop treating people fairly. That's just not going to happen.


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#45 anikom15

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 03:15 PM

I think it stems from a sense of entitlement. Some quest designers feel they're entitled because they made a good quest. That doesn't make sense. Everyone should have the same opportunities for sharing their ideas. Class systems have no bearing in a scarceless community like PureZC because nothing is at stake. If someone doesn't complete her quest, there is no loss.

Edited by anikom15, 29 March 2014 - 03:46 PM.

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