Jump to content

Photo

Modular Classic Expansion Tiles - WIP


  • Please log in to reply
13 replies to this topic

#1 Anthus

Anthus

    Recovering PureZC Addict

  • Contributors
  • Real Name:Alex
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 09 December 2016 - 06:02 PM

Q: Hey Anthus, why did you turn the Classic objects into a sticker book?

 

VKt2DKJ.pngkQCO9iw.png

7UpsVmT.png2xqlCNf.png

7UpsVmT.png

 

A: These aren't stickers! This is the Modular Classic Expansion! So I have had this idea for a while, and what this aims to do is make it easier to make elaborate screens in Classic without the need for multiple versions of the same tile to use with the varying c-sets. To achieve this, we will be using various tiles that can be layered. It might seem trivial at first, but once set up, making screens with lotsa colors is pretty easy. And to boot, there are even relational drawing mode tiles set up for Classic mountains, water borders, and custom grass/ sand borders. This is still a WIP, and I've only tested it with two palettes I've made, but I like it a lot so far, and am happy enough with it to share it. :)

 

These remove the ground color, and replace it with a transparent color in each tile (except where the ground color is used in the object depicted in the tile). That transparent color is pink here, but in the NES tileset, black was the transparent background color used for outlines. That brings me to the only downside of this: If you intend to use these with the regular Classic tiles (which you probably will) you will need to know what they are, and how they are set up, cause in Classic's default palettes, they will appear mostly black, and look wrong as they are intended to be layered.

 

Feel free to use these I will be updating this as they become more organized, and, more than likely, be making an official database submission with the finished results! :)


  • Lightwulf and Lüt like this

#2 ZoriaRPG

ZoriaRPG

    ZC Wiki Editor

  • Members
  • Gender:Unspecified
  • Location:Prydon Academy

Posted 10 December 2016 - 11:08 AM

Do you have some examples of them in use Anthus?


  • Anthus likes this

#3 Anthus

Anthus

    Recovering PureZC Addict

  • Contributors
  • Real Name:Alex
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 10 December 2016 - 04:54 PM

I have a few (very crude) screens, which are really more of tile tests than real playable screens :P

 

This is more akin to a "proof of concept" type of thing so far, mainly cause I don't have very many different or uniqe palettes to really test with it. Ideas I had in mind though were using this to have sand, and grass like a beach, or so people can easily use various trees in a style more like Pure/ DoR, and just generally make Classic less unwieldy for more modern screen designs.

 

Spoiler

  • Lightwulf likes this

#4 Lüt

Lüt

    Germanize

  • Members
  • Real Name:Steve
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago

Posted 11 December 2016 - 10:52 AM

without the need for multiple versions of the same tile to use with the varying c-sets.

Is that referring to things like shorelines having both tan and green variations but otherwise being graphically equivalent? Or do you just mean the need to manually overlay the same transitional tile graphics on each of the different floors you want them to transition to if you aren't going to use layers?

And to boot, there are even relational drawing mode tiles set up for Classic mountains, water borders, and custom grass/ sand borders.

Now that's a good idea. I'm still totally out on dungeon carving, but having looked through DoR's various relational drawing mode setups, it seems fairly easy to imitate those with classic equivalents. The fact that they're dungeon borders makes it easy to figure out exactly which tile represents what, and while it inspired me to start on my own dungeon equivalents, I should have realized I could carry the patterns over to overworld elements as well - rocks especially. And now that I see your tile pages, it makes me realize it should have been the most obvious element to have a relational drawing mode setup.

The odd thing I notice the more I use relational mode, though, is that the screen seems to "remember" what I did - and if I erase it and start over, the previous relations pop back into place with barely a few clicks. It makes me wonder if we need "inverse" configurations as well - setups to draw blank tiles with flipped borders, and alternate between the two to refine the edges of a scene. Because if that's the case, I leave them to you :P

That transparent color is pink here, but in the NES tileset, black was the transparent background color used for outlines. That brings me to the only downside of this: If you intend to use these with the regular Classic tiles (which you probably will) you will need to know what they are, and how they are set up, cause in Classic's default palettes, they will appear mostly black, and look wrong as they are intended to be layered.

That's not a terribly big obstacle - all the user needs to do is change the transparent color in their Overworld Level palette to match the numbers you give for the pink, then your tiles will import fine.

Feel free to use these

Yes.

(Though it seems I've already made a number of similar edits myself heh.)
  • Anthus and Lightwulf like this

#5 Anthus

Anthus

    Recovering PureZC Addict

  • Contributors
  • Real Name:Alex
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 12 December 2016 - 07:39 PM

 

Is that referring to things like shorelines having both tan and green variations but otherwise being graphically equivalent? Or do you just mean the need to manually overlay the same transitional tile graphics on each of the different floors you want them to transition to if you aren't going to use layers?

 

These will pretty much require layers. You will basically be able to make your own overlays, and borders, with any c-set you like, instead of needing to have four or more of the same tile in the same palette just to use a different color of it... if that makes sense :P. So, instead of needing a different combo for any possible c-set combination of the two elements, you can just manually layer them.

 

 

And now that I see your tile pages, it makes me realize it should have been the most obvious element to have a relational drawing mode setup.

 

If it's any consolation, it took me this long to do it too.

 

 

The odd thing I notice the more I use relational mode, though, is that the screen seems to "remember" what I did - and if I erase it and start over, the previous relations pop back into place with barely a few clicks.

 

Yeah, this is a phenomenon I've noticed too. It seems though, that you can hold Shift, and "delete" tiles laid with relational mode. This does seem to really make them go away, and the don't pop back up when you start over. One critical thing I noticed though while making these was that, relational mode does not care what the tiles are, and will connect any relationally-laid tiles together, if they are on the same layer, and laid adjacent to each other. This can be problematic, say, if you have a path overlay, next to a water edge, or cliff overlay, as it will merge the two elements together. This can be bypassed by using yet another layer, but simplicity was the goal here. EDIT: And considering you only get two extra layers drawn at, or below Link, this could limit some more elaborate designs.


  • Lüt likes this

#6 Lüt

Lüt

    Germanize

  • Members
  • Real Name:Steve
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago

Posted 13 December 2016 - 07:12 AM

These will pretty much require layers. You will basically be able to make your own overlays, and borders, with any c-set you like, instead of needing to have four or more of the same tile in the same palette just to use a different color of it... if that makes sense :P. So, instead of needing a different combo for any possible c-set combination of the two elements, you can just manually layer them.

OK, yeah I get the idea, it's like applying multiple CSets to an individual tile using layers.

I remember early on, cycling through CSets and thinking about all the different colored trees I could have, if only the stumps and ground didn't change colors with the leaves. Then, after I broke the leaves free from the stumps/ground and made them layerable, I put them all together and was genuinely surprised how much color you could have on a single screen with only default classic palettes. There's a lot of great color variety to work with, if only you can free it all up.

And I mean, 8-bit tiles are cool and all, but yeah you do have to make multiple versions because you lose the ability to cycle them through level palette colors.

Which may or may not have been what you were referring to, but is a thing I've considered as well.

If it's any consolation, it took me this long to do it too.

That makes me feel such less stupider.

But to my discredit, I used to make Warcraft 2 maps back in the day. It was my first tile-based editor, and every single thing you could draw was essentially its own variation on relational mode, with a few alias objects thrown in. I forget the exact setup, but you basically pick rock/grass/forest/water/mud/walls/etc. and drag the mouse around the screen and it figures out all the edges for you. It took a year before I even made the connection. Now I want everything in relational mode because I remember how easy it was to use war2edit - not to mention being able to turn out an entire pro-quality overworld-sized map in a day or two.

It seems though, that you can hold Shift, and "delete" tiles laid with relational mode. This does seem to really make them go away, and the don't pop back up when you start over.

Intriguing. Just tried it, looks exactly like what I was hoping it would be.

One critical thing I noticed though while making these was that, relational mode does not care what the tiles are, and will connect any relationally-laid tiles together, if they are on the same layer, and laid adjacent to each other. This can be problematic, say, if you have a path overlay, next to a water edge, or cliff overlay, as it will merge the two elements together. This can be bypassed by using yet another layer, but simplicity was the goal here. EDIT: And considering you only get two extra layers drawn at, or below Link, this could limit some more elaborate designs.

Duly noted.

 

At least it's per-layer. It's not like I can't manually place a few borders here and there, so it's not exactly a show-stopper.

 

It does make me wonder where this relational data is stored though, and if it stays after closing/reopening a quest. Maybe that's what the .qt# files are for? They're certainly a lot larger than the .qst/.qb# files.



#7 tim

tim

    Haptato

  • Members
  • Real Name:harambe
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Jersey

Posted 13 December 2016 - 10:28 AM

I always griped about how classic required you to basically make screens look poorly drawn because of the limitations such as trees against mountains or water corners. This looks promising for me since I really like classic.
  • Anthus and Lightwulf like this

#8 Saffith

Saffith

    IPv7 user

  • ZC Developers
  • Gender:Male

Posted 13 December 2016 - 11:10 AM

It does make me wonder where this relational data is stored though, and if it stays after closing/reopening a quest. Maybe that's what the .qt# files are for? They're certainly a lot larger than the .qst/.qb# files.

.qt# files are timed saves. They're large because they're uncompressed.
Relational data isn't stored. It's lost when you change drawing modes.
  • Lightwulf and Lüt like this

#9 Anthus

Anthus

    Recovering PureZC Addict

  • Contributors
  • Real Name:Alex
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 13 December 2016 - 11:59 AM

 

OK, yeah I get the idea, it's like applying multiple CSets to an individual tile using layers.

 

Yes:

lcNP9T6.png

 

This is another test screen. I kind of tried to make it more like a playable screen, but it still kind of screams "TILE TEST!". After using these a little more, it's not as easy as I thought, but it still does save time in the long run. You do have to go back and clean up some edges here and there, but that's not a big deal considering you don't have to place every corner manually.

 

 

 I forget the exact setup, but you basically pick rock/grass/forest/water/mud/walls/etc. and drag the mouse around the screen and it figures out all the edges for you. 

 

I don't remember what game I played as a kid, but there was a game with a similar map editor. It may have even been RGPMaker, but I have always wanted something like that set up for use in Classic. You don't have to use all the bells and whistles but it is nice to have the option to.


  • Lightwulf and Lüt like this

#10 Lüt

Lüt

    Germanize

  • Members
  • Real Name:Steve
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago

Posted 13 December 2016 - 02:05 PM

.qt# files are timed saves. They're large because they're uncompressed.
Relational data isn't stored. It's lost when you change drawing modes.

Aha.

That makes for an easy reset then.

After using these a little more, it's not as easy as I thought, but it still does save time in the long run. You do have to go back and clean up some edges here and there, but that's not a big deal considering you don't have to place every corner manually.

And here we go with the multi-rocks again.

I seriously have to get a topic started on that. You're like person #20 to do it.

I like the screen though. I mean, minus some of the shroomed-out colors maybe heh. Some of the best stuff comes from test screens. At the least, it makes me want to explore. And maybe burn that red tree at the top. Tell me there's a good reason to burn that red tree at the top.

 

Manual tweakage is a given in scenes like that though. Classic really does have possibility for great complexity when you break it down like that.

I don't remember what game I played as a kid, but there was a game with a similar map editor. It may have even been RGPMaker, but I have always wanted something like that set up for use in Classic. You don't have to use all the bells and whistles but it is nice to have the option to.

It does make things so much quicker. This is only the second tile-based editor I've used, so I'm not sure how common it is, but I'm really glad ZC has support for it. Totally worth the setup time.


  • Anthus likes this

#11 Lüt

Lüt

    Germanize

  • Members
  • Real Name:Steve
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago

Posted 24 December 2016 - 08:26 AM

Alright, well sorry for bumping your topic for this (not really), but I've gone absolutely relation-mad.

 

You know, those rocks had me facepalming so hard, and when I finally put them together, it made me wonder how much else I could do.

 

I mentioned how DoR had those LttP-styled dungeon borders in place already, so I started with the NES-styled equivalent:

Spoiler

And I was like, all that in 5 seconds when by hand would have taken 5 minutes? Moar.

 

So I figured out how to make full-tile equivalents work. Didn't take too long:

Spoiler

Looks like some screwy old 80's maze game I used to play, but I can't remember the name, so it's probably best forgotten.

 

Regardless, no dungeon is complete without pits:

Spoiler

Does that look like something? I honestly can't tell, but it inspired me to make random pit art:

Spoiler

Though, by the time I made Tetris out of pits, I realized it was time to move on:

Spoiler

And that brings me to what we were talking about before.

 

That thing you mentioned about holding shift seems to invert the mode. Normally, it starts with the combo at the upper left of the collection and builds all the following combos around it. But when you hold shift, it starts with the combo at the bottom right and "unbuilds" the previous combos around that one instead. Super easy.

 

And Saffith was right (yeah surprise) about clearing the mode - you only have to press "o" to exit and re-enter. No need to use layer hacks, or even leave the screen. Just "o" and "o" and you're good to make another relational section without it connecting to the previous relational section. Check this out:

Spoiler

Made all that without ever leaving the screen. Single layer.

 

Also, I know we talked briefly about dungeon carving elsewhere, but far as my stuff goes, I still don't see it happening on a multi-tier basis. I mean, I dabbled in it a bit to automate those bordered-diamond tiles I use on 1st-tier-up, but apart from upper-lower wall variants, it hardly brings anything to potential:

Spoiler

Because actually, once again, relational mode works better and is more precise (1 level of bordering instead of 2) and doesn't require an absurd excess of tiles that would otherwise have no practical use whatsoever:

Spoiler

I crapped that room out in about 1 minute.

 

Hardly an advertisement for good design, but it lets you do rough mockups super easy.

 

And lastly, I decided to give Wulfie-pie's bridge pack the relational treatment:

Spoiler

Instant docks ahoy! :D

 

Yeah OK I'll go away now.

 

But really, it was a cool thing you figured out. I pretty much learned relational mode because of this, and now things are so much better and quicker. Nobody should be without this. You must complete your mission and bring relational mode to the masses.


  • Anthus and Lightwulf like this

#12 Reflectionist

Reflectionist

    Illustrious

  • Members
  • Real Name:Jake
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Missouri, US

Posted 30 December 2016 - 05:43 PM

...Whoa, that's intense.


  • Anthus, Lightwulf and Lüt like this

#13 LikeLike on fire

LikeLike on fire

    vaugly coherent

  • Members
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:NJ

Posted 01 January 2017 - 06:55 AM

i don't think I understand



#14 Anthus

Anthus

    Recovering PureZC Addict

  • Contributors
  • Real Name:Alex
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 11 January 2017 - 03:08 PM

I really should get around to releasing this small tile pack :P

I've just been busier than usual these last few weeks.
  • Lightwulf likes this


1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users