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Yuurei

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Yuurei Discussion and Bug Reports


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Poll: Yuurei Runs

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Which character(s) did you play?

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Did you play as any of the post-game "special" characters?

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#31 Plutia

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Posted 11 December 2016 - 01:26 PM

Spoiler
oops i did it again

 

there's only one real problem i have with this quest, and that's that the start kinda sucks, maybe if everything in caverns took half as many hits to kill? but once you get some stuff it just picks up momentum and doesn't really stop


Edited by Plutia, 11 December 2016 - 01:27 PM.

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#32 Aevin

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Posted 11 December 2016 - 03:07 PM

Avataro

 

Plutia

 

I've also been considering putting in an easier mode in addition to Difficult and Normal, especially since some of the late game areas might be a little much for more casual players. The major barrier here is that doing so would most likely break everyone's saves, so I'd rather wait a little while before giving that a go.



#33 Plutia

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Posted 11 December 2016 - 03:18 PM

I've been playing on normal -- i feel the difficulty is completely fine, but making the first area have lots of enemies that are kinda tanky makes the beginning kinda boring. As for breaking saves... it's not exactly a long quest anyways.


Edited by Plutia, 11 December 2016 - 03:18 PM.


#34 Aevin

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Posted 11 December 2016 - 03:22 PM

You're right there. Breaking saves might not be such a big deal with a clear warning, since encouraging replaying is a major thing here. I think I'll take your advice and shuffle around some of the beginning enemies. Maybe use the golems more sparingly and throw in some more of the keese-like enemies just for the first couple areas or two. Also ... I've been putting this off, but it's clear I need to do some work on the sand croc enemies, as multiple people have complained about them.



#35 Plutia

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Posted 11 December 2016 - 03:46 PM

Spoiler



#36 Aevin

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Posted 11 December 2016 - 03:59 PM

The warp pads don't really hide a big secret or anything. The orbs represent the characters, and they're grouped in ways that I find meaningful for whatever reason. Several of them feature the character groups that have similar story patterns. I like thinking of the one in Hikaridoki as Hitodama's plot summarized in a warp pad. Similarly, the one in Caverns depicts the Lord of the Lost and his wisp minions. Nothing too important, just a little touch I felt like putting in.

 

I should also mention ...

Spoiler


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#37 Dimentio

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Posted 11 December 2016 - 10:12 PM

Here's the final boss of my challenge run:

Postgame Spoilers


Also, beat Rhone on Difficult mode.
 

Spoiler


Edited by Dimentio, 11 December 2016 - 10:12 PM.

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#38 Avataro

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 10:31 AM

@Aevin: What you said makes sense. Apparently I kinda forgot the names everytime when the opening cutscene was over, which is my bad. Also, it's been long since I've played Hitodama, but this quest is actually very "noob"-friendly.

 

So a question, where's the music of the quiz and the sixth area from? They use the same track. I'm playing with the OGG music files.

 

Also, I said halts usefulness depends on its duration, which is true, but the number of uses per screen is even more important. xD Only once per screen is just a tiny bit disappointing, but I see why it has to be like that. It's still really useful.


Edited by Avataro, 12 December 2016 - 11:57 AM.

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#39 Aevin

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 03:19 PM

That music is a remix from Mega Man 5. I'm pretty fond of it.

 

Balancing Halt is a pretty tricky prospect. It could have a longer duration, or multiple uses per screen, but then I'd have to increase the MP cost to balance it right ... Weighing a lot of factors on it, this seemed like the best choice to allow it be used fairly freely, but I can understand if it feels fairly limiting to only use it once per screen.

 

Thanks for playing. Glad to see you seem to be enjoying the quest so far.


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#40 ShadowTiger

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 03:46 PM

I thoroughly enjoyed the quest as Metroidvanias are involved. One thing I'd love to see more of are visual cues that don't confuse the player. I get it that this is an NES-style quest, but there are a few things that I feel would enhance the player's experience a bit.

For one, those "plot barriers" appear nearly arbitrary. I didn't see any way to tell that they could be opened by the player, by the environment, or by the plot. I might even go so far as to say that it's bad game design just to have a block that vanishes at a plot point without telling the player that you need to advance the plot before it could disappear.

It's really more of a visual thing. At a glance, I have no idea what those blocks are. It could only require trial and error to see what they do. Yes, after seeing the blocks vanish for the first time after returning to an area may indicate that some external event caused their disappearance, but they'll never truly know what. They won't know what it is they need to do to cause them to vanish. It's a little bit frustrating. :) ... Smily face there, because I'm not mad or anything, haha.

Because there's a lot of weird blocks in the game, and no real visual cue to see what could affect them. I never figured out what to do with the metal diamond-shaped blocks, for example, north'ish of your starting location in the white area. What are those supposed to be?

Also, what's your take on the whole "try attacking every single block to see what will vanish" schtick? Some people love the challenge of pushing their face right up close to the monitor and trying to spot tiny visual cues that indicate that this block can be destroyed. I like that. A lot! Really.

I guess I'm just looking for a conversation with a person with the perspective of a newcomer speaking to the designer.
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#41 Aevin

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 04:00 PM

So, regarding the plot barriers ... With the exception of the white ones, that do sort of arbitrarily disappear at a midpoint cutscene (I tried to place some near that point so it was easy for the player to see when it happened), I thought they were relatively clear. They're all color coded according to the bosses you fight, who each clearly have a primary color that they speak in, and most of their attacks use. They change color to match who you fight depending on your character, too. I felt that this was a concept fairly well-established in old games like Metroid. The first set is also only accessible after the player has most likely beaten the boss in the lower left, too. Even if they got the flippers and headed straight back to Lethe, I'd expect at that point they would have at least encountered the boss in the lower left of the labyrinth, if not beaten it. I'd think most people could piece it together. "I beat a blue boss, and now the blue blocks I see here are lowered, but there's still red ones remaining, and I haven't explored everywhere yet, so ..."  I'm actually a bit puzzled by your objection here. I don't think it's as opaque as you make it out to be. I've designed with them in mind to demonstrate the concept just in case, and lots of old games have used this to a point where I'd expect most players to be pretty comfortable with the idea. With the white blocks, on the other hand, I really have no excuse and just sort of designed myself into a corner.

 

How far have you made it in the quest? When you talk about "metal diamond-shaped blocks," you're talking about the ones in the sky? They serve a pretty specific gameplay function that's demonstrated pretty quickly in an early-game area. I don't think a little mystery about their function is such a bad thing. I don't have a problem with a player seeing a certain gameplay element, going, "I wonder what THIS does ... Guess I can't do anything now," only to discover their function a bit later. Lots of games do this; not every game communicates exactly what something does the first time you encounter it, and personally I'd find it dull if everything were spelled out. Players are expected to find solutions to different kinds of barriers as games progress.

 

The theme I'm seeing here is that we may just have different philosophies on game design here. You seem to want everything's purpose and function to be very clearly telegraphed, while I think it's perfectly okay for the player to encounter a few "unexplained" things and then have those things made clear with further exploration and experimentation. Nothing wrong with that, I suppose.

 

As for the vanishing blocks ... I'm glad you liked that element. There's also some ways later in the game to help out players who dislike it, or for ones where the clues are a bit more obscure than they should be. Basically, Yuurei's answer to the super bombs in the Metroid series. I did try to provide good visual clues for nearly all of them (though I can think of a couple offenders), but I hope that I've managed a good balance for people who like hunting for stuff, and people who don't so much but are dependent on the powerups.

 

In any case, thanks a lot for playing. I do really appreciate hearing your thoughts on it.


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#42 Dimentio

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 06:06 PM

So, regarding the plot barriers ... With the exception of the white ones, that do sort of arbitrarily disappear at a midpoint cutscene (I tried to place some near that point so it was easy for the player to see when it happened), I thought they were relatively clear. They're all color coded according to the bosses you fight, who each clearly have a primary color that they speak in, and most of their attacks use. They change color to match who you fight depending on your character, too. I felt that this was a concept fairly well-established in old games like Metroid. The first set is also only accessible after the player has most likely beaten the boss in the lower left, too. Even if they got the flippers and headed straight back to Lethe, I'd expect at that point they would have at least encountered the boss in the lower left of the labyrinth, if not beaten it. I'd think most people could piece it together. "I beat a blue boss, and now the blue blocks I see here are lowered, but there's still red ones remaining, and I haven't explored everywhere yet, so ..."  I'm actually a bit puzzled by your objection here. I don't think it's as opaque as you make it out to be. I've designed with them in mind to demonstrate the concept just in case, and lots of old games have used this to a point where I'd expect most players to be pretty comfortable with the idea. With the white blocks, on the other hand, I really have no excuse and just sort of designed myself into a corner.

Perhaps you can have the player fight a boss early on to remove some blocks in another room, making players think "Oh so these gear shaped blocks require bosses!". Then, have the plot barriers be in the same room as a boss so that when you beat the boss, you see the changes happening.
 

Also, for balancing Halt: Maybe have the first cast in a room be cheap/it's current cost, but have each additional usage per room cost more and more each time. Exponentially or linear cost increase, either works?


Also, failed spectacularly at a Hito No Saving Difficult Any% Pacifist Evasion Speedrun. 


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#43 Russ

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 06:27 PM

Also, failed spectacularly at a Hito No Saving Difficult Any% Pacifist Evasion Speedrun.

With that kind of setup, I don't know if there's anything to do but fail spectacularly. :P

Also just to point out, there are three main characters that fight Seine and Loire, rather than Rhone, and you've picked all three of them. It's almost comical. :P
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#44 Aevin

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 06:44 PM

Perhaps you can have the player fight a boss early on to remove some blocks in another room, making players think "Oh so these gear shaped blocks require bosses!". Then, have the plot barriers be in the same room as a boss so that when you beat the boss, you see the changes happening.
 

Also, for balancing Halt: Maybe have the first cast in a room be cheap/it's current cost, but have each additional usage per room cost more and more each time. Exponentially or linear cost increase, either works?

I've considered doing that at the very least with the white ones. I suppose I could think about adding some to the first few boss rooms or something, too. Your Halt suggestion could work, too. I'll give it some thought.



#45 Dimentio

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 07:08 PM

With that kind of setup, I don't know if there's anything to do but fail spectacularly. :P

Also just to point out, there are three main characters that fight Seine and Loire, rather than Rhone, and you've picked all three of them. It's almost comical. :P

I fought Rhone as Jandra, so almost :P




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