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Let's Play Forum Rule Changes


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#16 Aevin

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 04:31 PM

I don't feel this change came "out of nowhere." The LP forum situation has been an issue for years, and we've made several efforts to get it more in line with what we'd like to see on a discussion forum. Our efforts were largely disregarded, unfortunately. I really don't think this is such a harsh change. People can post that the LP is happening, and anyone who's really interested can subscribe through other means. You can still update a "table of contents" in your first post as new videos are released, and you can still strike up conversations about it here on the forum. I can understand peoples' concerns, but I also feel like they're a bit overblown. As-is, the new posts offered no discussion, and the only benefit was a convenience that can be easily obtained through streaming and video sites. I guess from my perspective ... it's not like we're losing tons of fascinating discussions arising out of the bumps. We're losing the link dumps, which serve a purpose easily fulfilled elsewhere. I just don't feel like we're losing much of anything here.


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#17 Dimentio

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 04:59 PM

I don't feel this change came "out of nowhere." The LP forum situation has been an issue for years, and we've made several efforts to get it more in line with what we'd like to see on a discussion forum. Our efforts were largely disregarded, unfortunately. I really don't think this is such a harsh change. People can post that the LP is happening, and anyone who's really interested can subscribe through other means. You can still update a "table of contents" in your first post as new videos are released, and you can still strike up conversations about it here on the forum. I can understand peoples' concerns, but I also feel like they're a bit overblown. As-is, the new posts offered no discussion, and the only benefit was a convenience that can be easily obtained through streaming and video sites. I guess from my perspective ... it's not like we're losing tons of fascinating discussions arising out of the bumps. We're losing the link dumps, which serve a purpose easily fulfilled elsewhere. I just don't feel like we're losing much of anything here.

Let's say I make an LP. Each episode takes a quarter of a year to come out, maybe because I don't have a lot of free time to do that or I don't have a shcedule and do it whenever. With this new rule, I have to wait every two videos at least to post an update. That's an update every half a year. Or, if I have to wait every 3-4 videos, that's 3 quarters to a year I have to wait to bump. People lose interest in series if they aren't punctual. This rule may reduce link spam, but it prevent discussion from happening on those long delayed series because nobody knows if it is updated. This is a problem I noticed with GoldenWarrior's LPs, where, if he didn't update about them, I'd go for about a week or two without knowing that a new video had come out.

Basically, this rule punishes people for not being punctual, and makes it inconvenient for those who do have a consistent schedule (as in NJF's case). Not to mention, no user poll happened, and this decision was not at all transparent. But, I mean, I guess we don't need transparency now that it's main advocate is gone? /s

There was already little interest in my LPs when I still did LPs, and this would kill the rest of the interest. Not to mention the obvious loophole where somebody can just simply upload two videos at the same time, bypassing this limitation. Hell, they can just split their video into two parts for every video, and bypass it that way.
 



#18 Aevin

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 05:14 PM

One thing about a lot of our rules is we treat them more as guidelines. I'd imagine we'd allow something like that through. It's certainly not the intent or in the spirit of the rule to stifle peoples' ability to get their LP's out there, and at that point I'd argue it's practically another LP altogether. I know that saying "leave it up to the staff's discretion, we'll take care of you" isn't likely to instill a lot of confidence, but we do always try our best to be fair and make the forum work positively for our members.

 

I hardly think this is a "point of no return" or that we're about to go over a cliff or something. We've decided to try it this way, and if it really does have a dramatically negative impact, then we can reevaluate it and try something else. I feel like the LP forum problem is one of those things where if everyone cooperated, the problem would vanish. You can help by sending some traffic toward the LPs you really enjoy. Start up conversations. Talk about the stuff you liked. If topics are active enough, they'll float to the top regardless of whether they're bumped with video updates.

 

We'll make sure not to come down hard except in really excessive cases. And if any of you have questions or concerns about whether you'd "get in trouble" for a certain post, just ask! We're not trying to make this some shadowy secret where we'll pounce on any accidental violation and tear the poster to shreds.

 

So, that's my thoughts. We're going to give this a shot, and you all can help by engaging each other and making the LP forum as fun and active as it can be. If you give it a chance and help us make it work, I really don't think it will be the disaster some of you are making it out to be.



#19 Dimentio

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 05:22 PM

One thing about a lot of our rules is we treat them more as guidelines. I'd imagine we'd allow something like that through. It's certainly not the intent or in the spirit of the rule to stifle peoples' ability to get their LP's out there, and at that point I'd argue it's practically another LP altogether. I know that saying "leave it up to the staff's discretion, we'll take care of you" isn't likely to instill a lot of confidence, but we do always try our best to be fair and make the forum work positively for our members.

See, my problem with this, is that the way the new rule is worded over in the LP forum gives the opposite impression. Namely, "Posting every time you upload a new video is strictly forbidden", in big bold letters. Let's say (heh) I'm new LPer, or missed this topic or only read the first page of this topic, and I were to go over to that subforum and see the way the rule is worded. It implies that you'll be banned for a while if you simply step out of line. Maybe rewording it to Daily Updates, like the text below clarifies, would help.



#20 Aevin

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 05:29 PM

I suppose. It's just a bit difficult since our previous attempts at applying rules to the forum have basically been ignored. So I think you could see why we don't want to come across as too soft.

 

But between that and the risk of scaring off new members from posting at all here, I think one of those is clearly the worst of the two ...



#21 Anthus

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 05:31 PM

Do you guys, as a staff, feel like the organization of the LP forum could be part of the problem? Have you thought about maybe dividing up ZC LPs/ Streams and Console LP/ Streams? If the forums aren't cluttered with so many different topics, and bumps, maybe people would be more willing to go through them and talk, but I still think pixcalibur, Zoria, ykwls, and Dimentio pretty much hit it on the head though with reasons why people don't use the LP forum for large discussions as much as the staff may like, and I think those are very real points that must be considered. I do agree though, that the wording on the LP rule page is a bit "fire and brimstone" and does sound pretty harsh.

 

One other open question: If the community who is most active, and uses it the most is clearly voicing their concerns, and disfavor*, why add the rule? People don't want it. There hasn't been one person who has replied and been like, "Oh, good, now I can finally have a conversation since all that link dumping crap is done, yes! Nice job on that thing you recorded three weeks ago, and probably forgot about".

 

edit: * okay, not every LPer has chimed in, but I can see it not going well.


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#22 Aevin

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 06:03 PM

Regarding that second part ... Frankly, there's plenty of rules a majority in the community would change if they could. Just because something is unpopular doesn't mean it isn't necessary. But that shouldn't at all suggest that we're not listening to everyone's concerns on this.

 

For now, I'm gonna suggest you all give us some time to talk things out. We're not completely opposed to coming up with a different solution, but this doesn't guarantee we won't go through with the rule as planned. If anyone has anything else they'd like to contribute to the discussion, then by all means post here. But for my part, I won't be responding until we've had an opportunity to discuss this a bit more among the staff, so don't expect an immediate answer.



#23 Jared

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 06:13 PM

I think Let's Plays should have their own entire forum,instead of being a subforum. I personally do not like seeing them, and separating them into their own forum would make people not worry about the clutter. Also, it bumps up people's post count every time they post. When it's just a copy and paste a link, it's not really fair in my opinion.


Edited by Jared, 17 December 2016 - 06:13 PM.

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#24 Dimentio

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 06:20 PM

When it's just a copy and paste a link, it's not really fair in my opinion.

They are copying and pasting a link to their own content that they had to make, whether it be a video of what they've done, etc... just because it appears as a simple link to those outside, does not mean it is invalid content. A link is about as long as "I agree", and the latter counts for postcount, despite it not really having substance.

Speaking of post count, I need to go do something...



#25 Jared

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 07:34 PM

They are copying and pasting a link to their own content that they had to make, whether it be a video of what they've done, etc... just because it appears as a simple link to those outside, does not mean it is invalid content. A link is about as long as "I agree", and the latter counts for postcount, despite it not really having substance.

Speaking of post count, I need to go do something...

 

Yes, and that's the exact reason why posting jut a link should be on the lines of spam in my opinion.


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#26 Moosh

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 07:38 PM

Let's say I make an LP. Each episode takes a quarter of a year to come out, maybe because I don't have a lot of free time to do that or I don't have a shcedule and do it whenever. With this new rule, I have to wait every two videos at least to post an update. That's an update every half a year. Or, if I have to wait every 3-4 videos, that's 3 quarters to a year I have to wait to bump. People lose interest in series if they aren't punctual. This rule may reduce link spam, but it prevent discussion from happening on those long delayed series because nobody knows if it is updated. This is a problem I noticed with GoldenWarrior's LPs, where, if he didn't update about them, I'd go for about a week or two without knowing that a new video had come out.

Basically, this rule punishes people for not being punctual, and makes it inconvenient for those who do have a consistent schedule (as in NJF's case). Not to mention, no user poll happened, and this decision was not at all transparent. But, I mean, I guess we don't need transparency now that it's main advocate is gone? /s

There was already little interest in my LPs when I still did LPs, and this would kill the rest of the interest. Not to mention the obvious loophole where somebody can just simply upload two videos at the same time, bypassing this limitation. Hell, they can just split their video into two parts for every video, and bypass it that way.

If we had LPs with hiatuses that long, we'd be Something Awful and we wouldn't have to worry about any of this because all the link dumpers would already be banned. :P

 

I'd argue that the rule punishes people who are punctual, so long as they can't gather interest to match their update schedule. Previously these LPs would bury higher effort screenshot LP topics alive, I imagine that will no longer be an issue. No more 20 post long consecutive posting streaks makes for a healthier forum overall.

 

One thing that I do think would make for a good addition to the forum, however, would be a pinned topic with some example formats for organizing your OP. I have no particular interest in doing Let's Plays, but if I did I wouldn't have the first clue how to make my topic appealing to the community. And there's no way I'm giving Lowtax my 10bux to browse SA and look for examples.


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#27 TK8305

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 09:08 PM

Taking away bumping is going to make it far more difficult to get noticed for a new video.  x.x;  (Melee, Knuckles, Pix, I and many others do rely on that.)

 

I'm at least trying to add better descriptions while doing so without giving too much of what is in the vid away.  I'm not exactly spectacular at descriptions either...

 

I'll try to restructure my Child's Quest & TMNT 3 (When that gets up) thread into a playlist form but god that's gonna take getting used to...le sigh.



#28 Moosh

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 09:20 PM

Taking away bumping is going to make it far more difficult to get noticed for a new video.  x.x;  (Melee, Knuckles, Pix, I and many others do rely on that.)

I can't speak for others, but I'm usually sold on a Let's Play by the first post, not the 22nd. And then I get updates on that LP through my Youtube subscriptions. I mean obviously you guys can let us know if you lose significant viewership as a direct result of the change, but I don't really foresee that happening.


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#29 ZoriaRPG

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 04:10 AM

I think Let's Plays should have their own entire forum,instead of being a subforum. I personally do not like seeing them, and separating them into their own forum would make people not worry about the clutter. Also, it bumps up people's post count every time they post. When it's just a copy and paste a link, it's not really fair in my opinion.

 

Dear me. People still care about post counts these days? '...but...why?'. (-Eppy)

 

I think that we all know one-another well-enough to know who posts what type of content, and where, and what their longevity, and contribution levels are, without bantering about post counts.

 

That said, I see no issue with disabling the p/c on topics posted there. AFAIK, subforums allow that level of control on IPB. They certainly do on every other forum software package.

 

Insofar as clutter, do you mean that they clutter the recent posts for the Gaming & Entertainment board?

 

I doubt that there will ever be a dedicated forum for them. It would again be nice to segregate ZC LPs and Streams from the rest of the silliness, but that likely will never happen.

 

Now, if you'll pardon me, I'm going back to tormenting meself working on the sources.



#30 Anthus

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 04:59 PM

I kind of have an idea. A very small part of this is revised from my first post in this thread.
 
As far as "Index LP threads" are concerned, can we bump these at maximum, once a day, if actual substantial content has been added (several videos, an LP has wrapped, a new one has started. etc)? The index threads are more of less a hub for finding the user's individual LP threads easily, and they also offer a way for LPers to post updates in one thread alone. So I think is is within the bounds of the rule to do so in one thread only, for all your LPs at once, if there is something worth while, that is?
 
With this rule change, I think a lot of people would probably be alright with that as it is neat, shows updates, and doesn't link spam, and unless I'm reading it wrong, that was kind of the intent, no? So, I won't be bumping individual LP threads unless the game is finished, or dropped I suppose, but I will be editing the first post therein, and adding parts and descriptions in spoiler tags to the OP. Any "bumps" would be to my main thread saying "today we got through three more parts of whatever, and this, this and this happened, and I'm also starting this!" but obviously, more substantial, and with the video descriptions and whatnot. :P
 
I know I'm kind of the LP newb here, but I really think having one big thread for updates, and information on your LPs is a good idea, but leave the updates there. Have links to all of your finished LPs, and links to all of your working LPs in the OP. The actual LP threads can be linked to, or just checked on, I suppose. That way, 9 new videos isn't nine new posts over four threads with little more than a link and a blurb, but rather, one big post in one thread with all the updates, and links, no more than once a day. Sounds.. kind of okay, right? Maybe? Maaaaybe?



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